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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rod Liddle thinks Susie Green should be jailed

219 replies

ClingFilmApplications · 24/03/2019 03:46

In today's Sunday Times, Rod Liddle states of Susie Green:
"My own view is that she should be in prison for child abuse and assault."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/this-is-beyond-satire-woke-britain-look-out-or-youll-render-me-obsolete-6xff2xvb2

(don't know how to do share tokens, sorry)

OP posts:
T1meForDebate · 25/03/2019 10:07

I agree - surely taking a child abroad for genital mutilation is a crime?

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 25/03/2019 10:03

R0wantrees

Thank you for that, very important this gets seen and heard

R0wantrees · 25/03/2019 10:01

extended important article by Hacsi Horváth
'The Theatre of the Body: A detransitioned epidemiologist examines suicidality, affirmation, and transgender identity'
(extract)
"I am an adjunct Lecturer in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). I’m an expert in clinical epidemiology, particularly in systematic review methods, epidemiologic bias and evidence quality assessment. As a researcher at UCSF, I managed the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group for over a decade and on several occasions served as a consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO) in their HIV guideline development processes.

For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life." (continues)

"I don’t believe GD [gender dysphoria] reflects any kind of problem or glitch in the human body. Here’s what I suggest, in broad strokes, is going on with adolescents and adults:

Heterosexual males (the vast majority of men with GD) have autogynephilia.
Homosexual males with GD enjoy “femininity” and mistakenly believe this means they are “trans” or even women.
Females with GD have internalized misogyny and/or internalized homophobia.
In my opinion—which is based upon extensive research, as well as my own 13-year-long experience in pretending to be a woman–GD is only superficially concerned with one’s sex. It’s more a disturbance of identity, of mistaking the signifier for the signified. Patients have whatever mental illnesses they may have, or that develop while in the ruminations and hypomanic states that typically precede “coming out as trans.” I propose that GD is a moody, brooding syndrome that accompanies these mental illnesses. People with GD have cultivated an idealized vision of themselves as the opposite sex. At a critical point of rumination, after the patient has sufficiently disparaged his or her actual life and idealized life as the opposite sex, he or she realizes that body parts of the opposite sex may be obtained through the services of doctors (Raymond 1979, Billings 1982). Actually transforming into the opposite sex starts to seem feasible. The self-conception “splits” in two, and idealization becomes identity. Having negated any value in their actual male or female presence in the world, and now feeling themselves to actually be the self-generated persona, patients perseveratively ask themselves, “what’s stopping me?” “Feasibility” seems to trigger the split. Here begins the acute phase of GD." (continues)

"Virtually no research has been done in psychotherapeutic methods to alleviate the symptoms of gender dysphoria, prevent it, or get rid of it altogether. The entire literature comprises a couple of dozen case reports and small case series, some promising, nearly all from before 1990, and all using archaic methods. Based primarily on the pronouncement of Harry Benjamin, the “godfather” of transsexualism, that psychotherapy with these patients was a waste of time, the medical profession increasingly found ways to justify surgical and hormonal transition as the standard of care (Billings 1982)"
4thwavenow.com/2018/12/19/the-theatre-of-the-body-a-detransitioned-epidemiologist-examines-suicidality-affirmation-and-transgender-identity/

Weren't women's rights disregarded from the start when the male doctors required males who wanted to change their sex 'live in role' for two years?

The doctors who may be seen as 'gatekeeping' surgical and medical interventions for their patients effectively granted some men permission and requirement to access female spaces.

To what extent are these 'ground breaking gender doctors driven by God complex / male entitlement/ sexist & homphobic atitudes?

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 25/03/2019 09:59

This isn’t exactly the same , but I’ve seen parallels drawn with Jimmy Saville and the BBC cover up before. Well I just watched a Piers Morgan interview with Johnny Rotten, where an old previously unheard section of a BBC interview from 1978 has Johnny exposing Jimmy Saville and saying he’d want to kill him for what he’s doing etc . Piers and Johnny then discuss how the BBC turned a blind eye and Johnny got no airtime for a while.

At least The Times isn’t saying silent on this issue, on Susie Green... because we all know where that can lead..

Floisme · 25/03/2019 09:56

I know the thread has moved on but I just wanted to say, cheers Rod Brew Even assuming you have the Times legal team behind you, that was a gutsy thing to do. And it could make a real difference - I'm very interested to see what Susie Green does next.

It's not that long ago so I'd have been one of those going, Eww Rod Liddle! / Eww The Times! / Eww The Daily Mail! Why? Because I was being a knob, and a pretty stupid knob too.

R0wantrees · 25/03/2019 09:54

The thing that strikes me from both Dr Spack and Susie Green in the TedTalk and Beauty Pageant documentary is that it represents something akin to an advert for how effective Dr Spack's & Thai plastic surgeons medical interventions can be to create the appearance of a stereotypically 'beautiful'/ 'sexy' (?) young woman.

In theTedTalk, Susie Green uses a 'favourite' photograph of her child which is described as being valued for this reason.

hackmum · 25/03/2019 09:51

In terms of Liddle's arguments, he is being less charitable to Green than I would be - I think she thought this was the best option for her child.

She probably did. Then again, parents who perform FGM think it's in the best interests of their children too. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Very interesting to read about circumvention tourism - thanks, Red. The authorities seem to have completely overlooked their responsibility to protect the best interests of the child in the Green case.

Datun · 25/03/2019 09:39

The impression I get from that TEDTalk is that the parents created a situation where their son desperately wanted to be a girl, and then had no choice but to pursue it.

ToeToToe · 25/03/2019 01:21

Just to be clear - when I say he's against the snowflake generation - I mean he believes in teaching kids resilience and fortitude - and he doesn't believe in pandering to his children's every whim. He believes that children should hear the word 'NO' now and again.

ToeToToe · 25/03/2019 01:17

Interesting - my DH is harsher on Susie G than I am.

I told Dh about the whole thing - he's totally with us GC people, and v pro women's rights - and then he watched Susie G's TED Talk with me. Well, to say he was gobsmacked is an understatement.

His opinion is that she completely pandered to her child - sort of "there there darling, of course you can be a girl if you want, and Mummy will do every in her power to make it happen". He actually thinks this transing children stuff is largely down to bad parents giving their kids anything and everything they want.

He's very against the 'snowflake generation' in general.

As a gender critical radical feminist, I'm not quite as harsh as that... I think it's more nuanced than that. But I think an awful lot of people would agree with him.

PalatineUvula · 25/03/2019 00:16

In terms of Liddle's arguments, he is being less charitable to Green than I would be - I think she thought this was the best option for her child. I doubt you would get too far with arguing criminal offences here either, because the child appeared on TV and was (and remains) very happy with it.

The issue with Green really comes with the massive confirmation bias-led campaign to normalise the same for others.

I would hold Green culpable for being a publicity hound, for Mermaids, and also Dr. Spack whom I believe is a monster.

Binglebong · 24/03/2019 22:50

Not arguing Red, just preempting the arguments.

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2019 22:34

A mother country might not know what's best but it should be a subject of discussion and the child deserves to be protected. There should be proper discussions over life changing treatments for minors.

That doesn't restrict travel ultimately. What does is an inability to show that its in the best interest of that child to travel and not show appropriate consideration for how travelling and the medical procedure could cause harm.

It's about ensuring the right questions are posed first rather than naive and desparate parents being exploited or seduced into a treatment which is wholly unsuitable or just plain rot.

If evidence can be presented to demonstrate the effectiveness or to show that a proper evaluation of the pros v cons or that an experimental approach is the best course for that child then yes.

What is happening atm is parents are deliberately avoiding ethics which are there to prevent harm to a minor without any oversight at all. And agencies which should be safeguarding are not taking this seriously enough as an issue.

Parents can exercise their freedom to choose for their children, but only if it does no harm to their children. That's the case for everything else.

Binglebong · 24/03/2019 21:37

Sorry to go back earlier on the thread but it's moved fast.

circumvention tourism

The argument against restricting this will clearly be that a mother country will not always know best. We in Great Britain offer treatments not always available elsewhere - such as abortion. If effect we are saying GB knows better than the countries that ban it. So if the UK bans a treatment that is available elsewhere it would be hypocritical to claim that the UK is the only one that is right.

I'm sure someone can take that and explain better than I did - I'm too tired!

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/03/2019 21:32

Hi Fermat, yes.
It’s also safer for the firm of solicitors if Client requires advice about a potential court case brought by a transgender pupil then that is the advice we will give. That is the risk we will try to reduce .
For all sorts of reasons (Which would be better explained by an expert in the history of women’s rights or the lack of them) I think it is less likely we would be asked to advise on a risk of girls suing.

heresyisthenewblack · 24/03/2019 21:20

Its worth starting a separate thread about Prof Olsen-Kennedy given she may influence UK healthcare and the treatment of children in this country.

Yes. Will start one.

Mrskeats · 24/03/2019 21:12

He’s right.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 21:10

I suspect there's a lot of parallel type things going on re. trans issues - school A, confronted with the choice of upsetting girls or having a large, well-funded trans-rights organisation bring legal action, decides to avoid the legal action.

This is how a school was lobbied.
This then sets a precedent as well as a warning?
www.transgendertrend.com/who-is-making-policy-for-schools/

FermatsTheorem · 24/03/2019 21:08

Amoregentlemanlikemanner - by "safer" I take it you mean "financially safer" as in "less likely to be sued by disgruntled special interest group", where even if the attempt to sue was ultimately unsuccessful, it would be very expensive to defend.

(This is another case of the way in which the law may say one thing, but practical considerations, and money, pull in another. A structural engineer friend of mine got sued by a "client" - I say "client" because the guy had paid for a few calculations and a set of drawings for which he'd paid a couple of hundred quid. His builder then didn't do things properly and the roof collapsed. He sued both the architect and engineer arguing that his couple of hundred quid had bought him a complete design and project management including site supervision service. The architect's insurers settled out of court simply because that cost less than the legal fees. My friend, being a bolshy bastard, and more power to his elbow, represented himself in court and won.)

I suspect there's a lot of parallel type things going on re. trans issues - school A, confronted with the choice of upsetting girls or having a large, well-funded trans-rights organisation bring legal action, decides to avoid the legal action.

Hell, we ourselves do this every time we make calculations like "well, I could speak out, but what if I lost my job?" "What if the police decide to interview me overnight, and I'm a single parent, so my child then gets taken into care?"

Just the threat of legal action prevents a lot of things (there are posts pulled on MN, not because they are untrue, or because they misgender, or because they are sub judice, but simply because the person they allude to is known to be a litigious bastard).

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 21:06

Interesting.

I assume that if Teli and those with similar world-views give enough talks, hold enough conferences, get people to write articles like this one, and teach enough students, you get changes in behaviour without test cases and changes in law.

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 24/03/2019 20:55

I’m a lawyer but this is not my field. What I do know though is that we actively look to write articles which will gain traction in the market place. For instance at the moment people are encouraging me to write articles about Brexit even though this will be entirely pointless because all of the truthful information is available on one of three peer-reviewed websites and anything I say will be speculation .
I guess I’ve been doing this a long time and I can tell the difference between an article that is disseminating professional experience from an article that is trying to differentiate your firm from others in the marketplace by offering strong opinions on a topic that clients identify as high risk and therefore as one where they have need of guidance.
So what the 2016 Article by that firm of solicitors tells me is that at that time at least they considered that it was safer for schools to be shown to be bending over backwards to service the needs of transgender pupils than to be upholding the rights of girls under the Equalities act

Needmoresleep · 24/03/2019 20:35

This was the sort of thing I was picking up. Last week, so you missed it. £150 for nonmembers

www.hrinlaw.co.uk/calendar/event/view?id=102

And more work for lawyers picked up on the same google page. (Further off topic but interesting as they seem to be lawyers who advise independent schools.)

www.vwv.co.uk/news-and-events/blog/school-law-brief/your-obligations-for-transgender-pupils

'Gender reassignment' is defined in the Act as applying to anyone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo a process, or part of a process of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. This means that in order to be protected under the Act, a pupil will not necessarily have to be undertaking a medical procedure to change their sex but must be taking steps to live in the opposite gender, or proposing to do so, e.g. wearing clothes associated with the opposite sex and adopting easily identifiable appearance traits.

Sounds pretty close to self ID to me, but I am not a lawyer.

Hearwegoagain · 24/03/2019 20:32

Here is what the British Psychological Society said about 'informed consent' to the inquiry:

Regarding the ‘informed consent’ model.

Many transgender people advocate for the ‘informed consent’ model. This is, in reality, a number of different approaches ranging from something similar to that which most clinics are undertaking at present, to a model in which the type and timing of treatment is determined solely by the patient, if they are capacitous, irrespective of harm.

The moderate position is that capacitous patients should not have to prove themselves to clinicians in order to access treatment. Many people point to this being practiced in the US and elsewhere where three or four sessions of counselling are all that is required. This supports the right of the patient to choose, and to make their own mistakes if they chose poorly. There are two issues with this: First, at present clinicians are responsible to the Society and HCPC for any recommendations they make irrespective of whether the patient has also consented. Indeed it has always been, and should always remain the case, that clinicians act and make recommendations in what they believe to be the best interests of the patient, even if the patient does not always agree. The patient may seek a second opinion; may make a complaint, etc., but to ask clinicians to always agree with patients simply on principle undermines the very heart of the role of the clinician in providing safe practice.

Secondly, the Society is aware that many of its members are not acting privately as in the US, and that when patients are seeking non-private services they are being financed by a third party – not uncommonly the NHS. In this instance it would seem reasonable for clinicians to endeavour to ensure that that which is being asked for is necessary and efficacious; so as not to spend someone else’s money on what the patient wants, but may not need.

Consequently the Society welcomes an approach which allows the greatest amount of patient autonomy while still allowing clinicians to ensure clinically appropriate provision of services.

R0wantrees · 24/03/2019 20:31

Professor Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a global leader in the field of transgender healthcare

Its worth starting a separate thread about Prof Olsen-Kennedy given she may influence UK healthcare and the treatment of children in this country.

nauticant · 24/03/2019 20:31

I discovered there is a whole industry involving law firms training HR people about transgender rights. I wonder how much conforms with the Equalities Act, and how much is pushing boundaries.

I've commented before on law firms doing pro bono work for the benefit of TRAs. Which can spill over into something looking like harassment of those on the sharp end of a legal action. The ethics of this are alarming.

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