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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism-different things to different people?

57 replies

Ella1980 · 21/03/2019 01:20

As the subject title!

I often wonder things like...

Can you be married to/in a relationship with a wealthy man and therefore not ever work but still be a feminist?

I was once married to a very wealthy man who turned out to be the most controlling man alive! He was horrified when I returned to my career after having children as he was offended by the fact that this would "challenge his male role of successful breadwinner".

I divorced him and made certain not to make the same mistake again! My fiance earns less than me on average. He doesn't define me by my gender and likewise and I love it ☺

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nettie434 · 21/03/2019 20:21

That diagram about equitable and equal treatment is brilliant Neurotrashwarrior. You are such a mine of information!

LeesPostersAreInFrames · 21/03/2019 19:05

Smotheroffive knew you got it Wink

In my young years I took pride in the fact that luck was called a lady. In fact, there were so few public acknowledgments of the female presence that I felt personally honored whenever nature and large ships were referred to as feminine. But as I matured, I began to resent being considered a sister to a changeling as fickle as luck, as aloof as an ocean, and as frivolous as nature. The phrase 'A woman always has the right to change her mind' played so aptly into the negative image of the female that I made myself a victim to an unwavering decision. Even if I made an inane and stupid choice, I stuck by it rather than 'be like a woman and change my mind.'

Being a woman is hard work. Not without joy and even ecstasy, but still relentless, unending work. Becoming an old female may require only being born with certain genitalia, inheriting long-living genes and the fortune not to be run over by an out-of-control truck, but to become and remain a woman command the existence and employment of genius.

The woman who survives intact and happy must be at once tender and tough. She must have convinced herself, or be in the unending process of convincing herself, that she, her values, and her choices are important. In a time a nd world where males hold sway and control, the pressure upon women to yield their rights-of-way is tremendous. And it is under those very circumstances that the woman's toughness must be in evidence.

She must resist considering herself a lesser version of her male counterpart. She is not a sculptress, poetess, authoress, Jewess, Negress, or even (now rare) in university parlance a rectoress. If she is the thing, then for her own sense of self and for the education of the ill-informed she must insist with rectitude in being the thing and in being called the thing.

A rose by any other name may smell as sweet, but a woman called by a devaluing name will only be weakened by the misnomer. She will need to prize her tenderness and be able to display it at appropriate times in order to prevent toughness from gaining total authority and to avoid becoming a mirror image of those men who value power above life, and control over love.

It is imperative that a woman keep her sense of humor intact and at the ready. She must see, even if only in secret, that she is the funniest, looniest woman in her world, which she should also see as being the most absurd world of all times. It has been said that laughter is therapeutic and amiability lengthens the life span. Women should be tough, tender, laugh as much as possible, and live long lives. The struggle for equality continues unabated, and the woman warrior who is armed with wit and courage will be among the first to celebrate victory.

by Maya Angelou

NeurotrashWarrior · 21/03/2019 17:08

Liberal /3rd wave feminism has caused a lot of true understanding of feminism to be lost/ misunderstood.

A few here have said we're better off thinking of women's liberation when we talk about feminism.

I think

Ella1980 · 21/03/2019 16:48

@NeurotrashWarrior completely agree with this ☺

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NeurotrashWarrior · 21/03/2019 16:33

"Treating people equally doesn't mean treating them in the same way"

NeurotrashWarrior · 21/03/2019 16:31

Well if feminism aims to protect us from financial abuse then I'm strongly in favour of that. Marriage certainly doesn't! Well, not in my case at any rate.

Julie Bindel is very against marriage I believe.

This image is always helpful when discussing what equality and equity is and how feminism fits in.

Take away patriarchal structures completely and there's no need for feminism.

Women need to be centred as they have less as they're oppressed due to their sex.

Feminism-different things to different people?
Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 15:22

LeesPosters I get that, totally. I will not write it again, but celebrate the word woman instead! Thank you for enlightening me.

Ella1980 · 21/03/2019 10:36

Well if feminism aims to protect us from financial abuse then I'm strongly in favour of that. Marriage certainly doesn't! Well, not in my case at any rate.

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BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 10:21

“How can women protect themselves from men taking financial advantage?”
It’s bloody tough. That’s why we need feminism....

Ella1980 · 21/03/2019 10:04

@BertrandRussell
How can women protect themselves from men taking financial advantage? I was married and still lost everything 😡

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nettie434 · 21/03/2019 09:52

I don’t want women’s rights to be subsumed into general human rights.
Nor me BertrandRussell just very conscious of the success that Rosa Freedman has had in using human rights as a framework for women’s sex-based rights and the way that hate crime currently excludes misogynistic hate.

GroggyLegs · 21/03/2019 09:48

Feminism is about putting women first. Questioning whether something us good for ALL women, not just the individual.

Putting women first is hard to do and feels all kinds of wrong at first.

But when it finally happens you feel your centre of gravity shift and the world us never the same. You might catch gravity frequently trying to drift back to putting men first and being nice, then you have to stop & pull it back to women again.

It can be tiring & frustrating.

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 09:44

“BernardblacksWineIceLolly’s approach of talking about women’s rights is clearer and fits in with wider definition of human rights”
Do we want to do that? I don’t want women’s rights to be subsumed into general human rights.
And while I share concerns about the marginalisation of women who do not actively earn money, I think that feminism should be addressing that issue, and encouraging women in that position to realise how vulnerable they are and do wgtever they can to protect themselves.

nettie434 · 21/03/2019 09:25

Ella1980 Yes there are lots of different types of feminism. Think BernardblacksWineIceLolly’s approach of talking about women’s rights is clearer and fits in with wider definition of human rights. Financial independence was important in the days when women didn’t have access to bank accounts etc. However, the idea that that is the only way to be feminist ignores the contribution played by women who don’t do paid work.

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 09:08

And the Milly Tant trope did not help at all! Neither did the sudden appearance of lesbianism. Which of course hadn’t existed before.......

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 09:06

It was almost exactly the same as today. Constant undermining by the media, by men and by a depressing number of women. All the usual “you want to put women over men” “women like the way their lives are””strident” “unfemininine” “bra burning”” taking women’s choices away”.......Very depressing.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 21/03/2019 08:57

I’m old enough to remember when we stopped talking about Women’s Lib because the term had become so discredited

interesting

how had it become discredited? was it association with the Milly Tant stereotype, or something else?

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 08:49

I’m old enough to remember when we stopped talking about Women’s Lib because the term had become so discredited. Fuck me, it’s depressing.

Ella1980 · 21/03/2019 08:47

Perhaps if you knew my story you'd think differently? The fact that a man who abused me horrifically for ten years got equal shared custody of our small children and continues to control me is seen as legally acceptable is wrong IMO. So yes, it does make me a little angry the part about assuming children get to stay with mothers or however it's worded.

Might be "picky picky" to some but it's certainly screwed up my life!!

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 21/03/2019 08:46

I think 'feminism' is too easy to subvert. people like our disingenuous OP can be just not sure what it means. and when Jane 'eggshell skulls' Faye is getting billed as a feminist.....

I prefer to talk about women's rights and liberation these days. a bit old fashioned but i like it and it's much less ambiguous

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 08:43

*not easy.

ComputerSaysMo · 21/03/2019 08:43

A belief (based on experience and/or analysis) that women in society are systematically disadvantaged and actively discriminated against because of their sex, combined with the commitment to challenge (through critique) and overthrow (through activism) the conditions that legitimate such discrimination, as well as the discrimination itself (Kemp, s & Squires, J (eds). Feminisms, series: Oxford Readers (Oxford OUP, 1997)

Yes, I agree that’s it. Bunbury school of feminism, I believe.

BertrandRussell · 21/03/2019 08:42

“Maybe it's more about everybody being treated fairly? Is there a word for that?“
Yes, it’s called Equalism.
It’s very different to feminism, though. Feminism is about putting women front and centre. It’s about getting rid of the attitudes and structures that disadvantage women, and freeing women from all forms of oppression. It’s bit easy!

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 21/03/2019 08:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeesPostersAreInFrames · 21/03/2019 08:37

One word makes me angry - "Womxn"
.........
The word woman actually makes you angry.
Nah, I do t get it.

I love the word Woman. I am a woman and I'm proud. It's the replacement of the a with x to become "Womxn" that I hate, @smotheroffive. And with it the entire meaning of a sex, gender and femininity is erased and rewritten. An attempt to be inclusive to trans people and anybody else who "feels a bit womxn". It's become a really widespread replacement for the word woman in a certain "woke" part of the world I visited recently. Every time I read it I see that the word for me and my kind has become so "dangerous" that it can't even be written, like some kind of vile offensive swear word (which of course, are written and spoken freely).

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