Men don't care about women's jobs

And those at the top might frequently be men

They are, there's no might about it. That is the point feminists have been making. I agree about not racing to the bottom, but you're not getting that one past me on here !

Agreed Cheryl. This race to the bottom benefits only those at the top. And for all their socialisation, I don't see Rudd, May and other women in power acting any differently to the men around them. Ideas like this thread just seek to further divide the majority of us.

I think your anger is in the wrong place you are talking about men at the top not caring, surly the problem is you are presuming that's the case, do you know there are no woman working above you? Moaning that men would have put up a fight, then why didn't you? Women just now are so obsessed with blaming men for everything. Imo this has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the country going to shit

Well I'll tell you where they weren't, Danger - a mile underground in dangerous, confined, back-breaking conditions. They weren't getting white finger, black lung and other respiratory diseases that knocked decades off their lifespan. So much for valuing men.

But let's take this back to two of the OP's points. Firstly, men at the top feel that women are of little value. They see us all as replaceable, and that we don't care much about career progression.... Secondly, I just get the feeling men would push back against this kind of thing more.

Nobody at 'the top' gives a shit about anybody at the coalface, literally or figuratively. Look at the ranks of minimum wage jobs in factories, in call centres, in agriculture. It is poorly paid, long hours, crappy shifts and no voice. And those at the top might frequently be men, but all they are doing is laughing at those at the bottom who are earning them vast profits whilst squabbling amongst themselves about who's end of the stick is shittier. We are all getting dumped on.

And where were the womens' jobs then jurgen?

So if men and men's employment is so highly valued, what exactly was going on when mining, manufacturing and ship building were decimated in decades gone by? Does anyone remember billions being invested in northern regions to ensure that villages and communities were looked after, that men didn't descend into depression and suicide, that they could be retrained to move into long term, high paying careers after pits and yards and factories were shut? No, me neither.

No, they don't. Men don't care about women at all.

It's easy to say why didn't we take up better paying, typically male jobs but if you're in your 40s and didn't go to a girls school, private school or grammar school - we weren't encouraged into those types of role or even aware what jobs existed. If your parents didn't go to university and you grew up in a working class area, you probably had a skewed view of what well-paid means.

This is a really interesting thread. I was only just calculating how much income I have lost due to taking jobs which I could fit around my children and I would be mortgage free now. At 35 I was in a strong position to earn a high wage then had to look after my daughter ( dh didn’t want to go part time) at 52 I have finally got myself into a position again to earn decent money after paying for a masters qual. It’s hard. I watch much less able men get promoted much quicker in my area of work and that’s a fact.

Wisdom

Not doubting what you say, there’s truth in it. But I didn’t grow up like that, I was encouraged to explore science and coding (I remember coding games to play on the computer, showing my older age here haha) by my parents.

The one thing, however, is that I was encouraged to follow my passions, my brothers were told that they needed to make a living.

I love what I do, but it doesn’t make money. My brothers don’t enjoy what they do, but they make a good living.....

You could say that my parents didn’t think it was as important that I could make money doing what I love ... and I took that in. But for my brothers, it was absolutely critical.

"WisdomOfCrowds Sat 16-Mar-19 22:14:01"

Superb post. So true. Definitely resonates. Thank you.

We are a social species. It's possible to take the perspective that our babies are born prematurely, we spend a long time in childhood, and our brains are formed largely within and by the social environment. Socialisation matters hugely, and the females in the West are expected to care about everyone except themselves from day one while males are led to be self-centred and expect females to care about them before themselves.

It's socialisation, nothing more. I was equally skilled at both science and English, but I enjoyed English much more and went on to study it at uni. My brother was equally skilled at both science and English but he enjoyed science much more and studied physics at uni. Maybe that was just our natural inclinations, or maybe it's because from my earliest memories I was given books and my brother was given chemistry sets, I was encouraged to play fantasy games and he was encouraged to play chess, I was the subject of "friendship interventions" (coaching by the school in how to not fall out with anyone) whilst he was told that it was OK to need space and not be friends with everyone. So I grew up to love working with people and doing nurturing creative work. I worked for an NGO, a social care charity, and as a teaching assistant. I also did what most women are encouraged to do from childhood and put in a lot of unpaid "goodwill hours". My highest salary to date is £10 p/h. After a few years of bad paying jobs I studied hard to retake different A Levels and was accepted into medical school but impostor syndrome undermined my confidence and half way through I took a year out to regroup. During this time I fell pregnant and was basically told to forget about it, there was no way I could keep on top of the work and be a mother. I dropped out and am now a SAHM completely dependant on my partner. You won't be surprised to hear that the numerous men who had children during the course didn't take so much as a day off - it was just assumed that their wives would do all the childcare while they studied. You also won't be surprised to hear that my becoming pregnant proved no barrier to my partner completing his PhD.

My brother on the other hand grew up to be confident at maths, comfortable around people studying "hard" subjects, and with a strong belief in the value his time holds. He is a CTO and entrepreneur earning about £70k a year.

Did anyone force me to make these choices? No. Do I believe that my choices were therefore freely made? Definitely not. Our choices don't live in a vacuum and the world is still very much stacked against women. It started the day I was born and I'm only just now finding how deep that socialisation went.

It's worth remembering how recent women's rights are, and how all-pervasive sexist attitudes really are. They start right from birth. The mention of trades demonstrates it beautifully. I was educated in the 80s, went to Uni early 90s, and the only practical subjects that I was ever encouraged to take up were sewing and cooking, neither of them being high status or high wage. I've wished so many times, then and since, that I could have done woodwork and electrics instead. All school really taught me was how to pass exams and communicate - so essentially preparing me for customer dialogue roles. The horror from my mum when I asked her for a meccano set for my birthday! Girls are driven away from these practical trades from birth.

I mean, I totally understand where you are coming from, in the sense that roles women tend to do are underpaid.

.....it’s just that we also know this when we enter these fields, yet we still do so in large numbers. I could have knuckled down and become a mediocre engineer. Like many men I know.

... I was wondering what the boys that did a levels were now doing, in comparison to those who left to apprenticeships.

Ok well that is a bit unusual. I was wound

Presumably there were boys doing A levels as well as you and your female friends?

Women are not drawn to low paid roles

The thing is, we are. In the sense that we tend to put up with the low paid jobs, because we are attracted to the work. I was told long ago to go into STEM, but I didn’t listen.

Why?

Because I wasn’t interested, and I would have rather worked a job I liked than a well-paid job I hated. Still not sure I made the right decision :/ but at least my industry is also full of poorly paid men ....

Perhaps men are willing to go for the money, even if it’s an industry they hate, are not suited for, or are not good at.

Women are not drawn to low paid roles. The roles are low paid because they are done by women. Or immigrants.

We pay foster carers a little money because we don’t want to attract the wrong sort of people, who are just in it for the money .

We pay CEOs a lot of money because apparently it’s necessary to attract the right sort of people.

Guess which job is mostly female ?