WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?

The big trouble with all these messages that are so concerned about women's safety is this. They take away our rights to safety. They take away our right to feel safe as we walk around at night.

It's not the messages that do that, it's the violent men. That's what we need to tackle.

Women and girls ALREADY know the risks they don't NEED to be told AGAIN!

When and where do girls learn this? From parents - if they have responsible parents. From school - as long as they attend. What about the girls who have irresponsible parents or are in care, and aren't attending school regularly?

Instead of policing my own behaviour, I decided that I would not give in to violence and continued to move freely around the city, even after dark (as if I was a free human being).

I did too. I think I said that earlier. But I was cautious after the student was killed. What that meant was that I parked my motorbike as close as possible to my flat if I was back after dark, and didn't take my helmet off until I was inside my flat with the door locked behind me. Not much different from what I was doing before - keeping my helmet on until I was inside the building was something I'd do anyway if it was cold and wet. I certainly didn't impose a curfew on myself.

It amazes me that people are willing to see male behaviour as a given, that can't be changed.

I don't know if that's directed at me as well, but that's not what I think and I didn't intend to give that impression.

They reinforce the message that merely being female in Britain is a dangerous thing to be. Reinforce it, accept it, and enable it.

The big trouble with all these messages that are so concerned about women's safety is this. They take away our rights to safety. They take away our right to feel safe as we walk around at night.

That is why we call them victim blaming, but it is more than that. They absolve society of all responsibility for helping women to feel safe in a world of predators. They absolve men of all responsibility: they give men excuses, and bloody hell we all know that if you give men an inch they take a fucking mile.

I've been at work all day so I've speed read much of this discussion now I'm home. This is the standard of discussion you only get on Mumsnet, women are brilliant!

I'm interested that Oldcrone and I had such a different reaction to our time in Leeds. I decided a political response was needed and joined Rape Crisis to try and do something to bring about change. Instead of policing my own behaviour, I decided that I would not give in to violence and continued to move freely around the city, even after dark (as if I was a free human being). I guess I did a kind of 'risk assessment' of the society I was living in and realised that curtailing my own behaviour wouldn't protect me anyway, and that if something did happen, I'd likely get the blame, so fuck it.

Just as well really, one of my lectures was at 4pm so I'd have missed that every week if I'd decided to impose a curfew on myself. I did actually know a woman who left university because she couldn't hack it any more, I wouldn't say just because of the murders but they were definitely a factor.

It amazes me that people are willing to see male behaviour as a given, that can't be changed. If we don't even expect it of them, I suppose it never will change.

By targeting the groomers and the spikers you still reach the young girls who need the information

Exactly! But it sends the message that the perpetrators are to blame NOT the victims!

Whenwillitallend I hope to god your post at 0939 is sarcastic! Jesus Christ it's not is it?!!!

"The wider context is that society only has limited control over men's behaviour." Why the HELL shouldn't this be challenged and changed?! Society (via criminal justice) COULD do many things to modify men's behaviour if it CHOSE to.

This is not even being ATTEMPTED.

"Arresting and prosecuting and imprisoning all the men who do bad things is impossible" so we give up? We don't even try?!

"it just doesn't go as far as to say avoid all men always, just to avoid strange men" which is ridiculous when most rapists are well known to their victims!

"It doesn't. Women cannot control men's behaviour and controllig men requires extreme violence and cost and intrusion etc." Wow! So women's safety, long term mh and their lives are less important than the effort and COST required to deal with this? How charming an attitude!

Using a passive narrative that tells women to avoid it, is part of the problem.

Exactly! Language used, the narrative used MATTERS!

"With a prediction of the consequences. If you do this, you will be on the sex offenders register for life, and the minimum sentence for these crimes is ..."

That's a big part of the problem though isn't it? Rapists AREN'T convicted, even if they are they get pathetic sentences!

"and will therefore know that a poster campaign hoping to change mens attitudes will be utterly ineffective." Completely disagree. I firmly believe that many rapes & sexual assaults could be prevented IF

There were decent deterrents
Men & boys had consent properly drummed into them!

"I agree about the wording. But the information needs to be out there. How would you word a poster to warn girls and young women about grooming gangs and about people spiking their drinks?"

The information you're referring to is ALREADY out there. Women and girls ALREADY know the risks they don't NEED to be told AGAIN!

What we need is for the police to STOP dismissing victims reports

What we need is for the police to STOP blaming victims for what they were wearing/doing/where they were at what time etc

What we need is for the police to STOP excusing rapists

What we need is for the police to STOP targeting resources wrongly

What we need is for the police to STOP policing women's behaviour and INSTEAD do their JOB and police RAPISTS BEHAVIOUR!!

And that's before I even get Fucking started on the courts!!

By targeting the groomers and the spikers you still reach the young girls who need the information

The words: the price you pay, are not giving information. It’s implying you are doing something that could result in a high price, that is rape. It’s the wording here that’s an issue.

I agree about the wording. But the information needs to be out there. How would you word a poster to warn girls and young women about grooming gangs and about people spiking their drinks?

What’s the price a rapist pays? Nothing, absolutely nothing. He gets what he wants and the woman pays the price, a million times over. It’s absolute bullshit and it’s so depressing how many people will argue black is white on the issue.

Yes which is precisely why it’s never the victims fault. It’s impossible to go through life with zero risk. Best we can do is honestly and openly communicate what and where those risks are and let people with their own agency make their choices.

How do you think people meet people. They were originally strangers. I know no one who has not taken a risk. No one. And I am a married mother in my forties. It doesnt work.

But a price is not the same as fault/responsibility. There is a price to crossing the road and one of those is the risk of getting mowed down by a reckless driver. We all make risk assessments and cost benefit analysis to the actions we do all the time.

Datun, no the risk is lower per person because most people stay home and only a few people are party animals.

Lets make up some data. 30% of deaths from eating jelly are from eating blue jelly and 70% are from eating red jelly. Is red jelly more or less dangerous than blue?

Would you just say red is more dangerous than blue regardless of how much of each is eaten?

What if I tell you that 99% of jelly eaten is red and only 1% blue. Which is the most dangerous to eat, red or blue?

Clearly blue is more dangerous to eat, even though most deaths are caused by red.

The same is true for the rape statistics. Lets say people spend at least 10 times more time at home with partners than they do at parties with random strangers (total underestimate! its probably much more like 100 times!). Then the fact that 30% of rapes are by partners and 20% at the hands of strangers shows that hanging out with strangers is more risky than hanging out with partners.

Do you see that now?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with producing information to help people make risk assessments regarding their own lives. To withhold that crucial information creates an environment where people maybe more off guard which would make it easier for any given rapist to succeed.

The words: the price you pay, are not giving information. It’s implying you are doing something that could result in a high price, that is rape. It’s the wording here that’s an issue.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with producing information to help people make risk assessments regarding their own lives. To withhold that crucial information creates an environment where people maybe more off guard which would make it easier for any given rapist to succeed.

It doesn’t logically follow at all that providing women with said information means it is anywhere in the vicinity of their fault should the worst happen. If that’s what they are coming away with then our public education is in dire need of an overhaul in teaching critical thinking.

Rape is an act of violence and the fault always lies 100% with whomever initiated that act of violence. Providing information because there may have been a spate of drink spikings or whatever does not in any way alter the fact that philisophical and moral responsibility lies exclusively with the rapist.

I can understand people without robust critical thinking skills may commit an error in thinking, and if you DO think this makes women guilty of their own rapes knock it off you aren’t helping. If you have been a victim of this and this makes you feel it was your fault please don’t. It’s not your fault, it was never your fault in no version of reality could it ever be your fault. Please be kinder to yourself.

I don't see that priority is the issue, they have little to no chance of getting a conviction when the female willingly went back to do drugs etc. We've seen that all too many times.

Yeah, but the problem is that the law will not be onto you at all, because they are understaffed

I'm afraid that doesn't wash any longer.

They have enough staff, 3 to be precise, to arrest a woman for calling a man a man. In fact about six women altogether. And three men.

They can't claim they are understaffed, until they can prioritise normally

Maybe that’s the truth. No one will do anything to stop men raping or to bring them to justice when they do. Women will always be raped and all you can do is try your best to not be one of them. If it happens to you that means you weren’t trying your best.

Increasingly I'm WTAF about that whole area of the country.

It's a Bermuda Triangle of misogyny, abuse and safeguarding fuckery.

Yeah, but the problem is that the law will not be onto you at all, because they are understaffed and anyway have no hope of proving beyond reasonable doubt that anything untoward happened.

Unless there is a change in the actual law I don't see how they can threaten people with punishment for something it's widely believed people are hardly ever actually punished for.

The ONS say that a woman is more at risk from her partner and a man is more at risk from strangers. Also that men are more at risk of being victims of violent crime.

Great, so where are the posters telling men how to stop themselves from being attacked? Don’t you think the lack of them could be down to sexism?

The thing is, it’s all very well saying the police are just pointing out facts etc but firstly, is this the attitude the police take when crimes such as those emphasised on the poster occur. In my case the male police officer believed no offence had really taken place, his actual words were when I described being unable to run away in time ‘then you shouldn’t have been wearing such silly shoes’ he never saw the shoes I was wearing, just assumed this and in all honesty it was irrelevant.

Do these posters put off people who find themselves victims of crimes reporting the crimes (it has definitely put me off ever going to the police after my incident)

Does it encourage society to victim blame imo yes it does, ‘women you have been warned therefore it’s your fault if something happened’

That’s just a few problems with this poster. Not to mention the absolute sexism pictured.
If (according to this poster)
And what about vulnerable young people. They find themselves at these parties because their mates dragged them there blah blah. Then it’s all their fault if something bad happens right?

When the police called me back a few weeks later asking me to be a witness as they believed the same men had committed an actual rape I couldn’t bring myself to go back into the station. I’d lost all trust and was scared and embarrassed, i actually thought they had a point about me needing to wear better shoes as they were cheap sandals!! I believe a poster like this sends a lot of wrong messages out, it breaks down trust between people and the police who we should be able to turn to if something bad does happen.

That trust for me has never been rebuilt I’m not bitter but more scared that if I ever do need them they won’t help me and sad that I could potentially have helped the poor lady who was raped but felt I was being laughed at by the police for not running away ‘properly’ or not running away because my shoes were not right etc.

This poster says that, it says women don’t be a party animal else you might run into trouble. It should say society wake up and treat each other with respect tbh, that the law will be onto you if you take advantage of a situation. When will we move forward.

pineapple

Crossing the street in broad daylight is a risk. Can’t wait to see that on a poster and the debate about whether we should be leaving the house during the day, without a male chaperone unless we’re willing to pay the price.