WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?

The best message our govt could send? Mandatory full life sentence for rape! I'm pretty sure that would significantly reduce the number occurring!

This. Also coming down hard on street harassment in general.If we come down harder on the lesser crimes, men won't think they have free licence to behave however they want around women and it won't progress so easily. Treat boys' aggressive behaviour everywhere with the same restrictions girls face instead of letting them get away with it.
Internet porn has to be faced and policed, sexual fetish excuses for rape has to stop, and no more crap around DV either.

While I'm on my wish list, converting the country back to a meritocracy and continuing to help women get equal employment and girls' equal education standards with men so that they actually have that knowledge of and real opportunities for other lives would help too.

"My point is that young people do need to learn things - we can't assume they know what is dangerous and what isn't unless someone tells them or they learn in some other way" and yet you say nothing about teaching boys/young about consent, about NOT being rapists, about respecting girls/women generally and specifically respecting boundaries and sexual consent? Yet campaigns regarding OTHER crimes, in particular knife crime which wyp currently also have a campaign about ARE targeted at perpetrators NOT victims. I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that the victims of knife crime tend to be oh...male! 🤔

Education needs to be done correctly, with input from victims and experts in the crime. None of which seem to have been consulted by wyp.

"I agree. But how do we go about changing this?" Really? You can't think?

Using BETTER language, BETTER messages. Place the blame where it belongs, educate the potential perpetrators, show support to victims...

And when I say use better language, better messages I don't just mean words (though I believe words are extremely powerful and should be used carefully, words have and can change the world. For good or bad, just look at Marx, chairman Mao, jfk, Churchill, hitler, Martin Luther King, Gloria Steinem, Ruth bader Ginsberg, nelson Mandela, Harvey milk, Enoch Powell, mo mowlam...)

The best message wyp could send? Focus resources on finding and prosecuting rapists! Rather than creating (and probably wasting a significant amount of money and time!) offensive ad campaigns blaming victims!

The best message our govt could send? Mandatory full life sentence for rape! I'm pretty sure that would significantly reduce the number occurring!

"I didn't say that. My point was that no poster is going to have an effect on a girl in that position - or possibly on anyone. I didn't say, or intend to imply, that they deserve to be raped. Of course they don't." I believe you didn't intend that meaning but can you see how it was implied in what you said?

"And I missed that as well. Thanks for pointing it out." Slow on the uptake myself there, it's disgusting!

*OldCrone : But how do we go about changing this?
*
We use the right language in our publicly funded campaigns, just for starters. We insist that the police take advice from organisations who know how to design the messaging, and when they don't, and their campaigns are dangerous, misleading or just a lot of misguided nonsense, we call then out for it - as is happening today.

As pp have said and I agree with, it's the wrong emphasis. It's like there is a manual, which never includes telling men about the possible consequences if they rape.

Yes. If this was a paired posters campaign, in which this one warning young women of dangers was accompanied by another, warning young men of consequences, then I wouldn't be so pissed off.

I understand where you're coming from but I think on balance the negative effect of the statement (i.e. the message to men that they can get away with it) outweighs any positive.

I agree with that about the poster - there is far too much that is negative about it. And I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's explained what's wrong with it, because I was one of the people Datun was describing earlier in the thread.

People reading the poster in the OP, will swiftly say, no of course women aren't to blame for their own rape. Because they know that, and they don't think the poster is actually saying that.

As pp have said and I agree with, it's the wrong emphasis. It's like there is a manual, which never includes telling men about the possible consequences if they rape.

Social media by RESPONSIBLE posters (certainly not wyp)? adults that care for them (even children not being raised at home have carers)?

My point is that young people do need to learn things - we can't assume they know what is dangerous and what isn't unless someone tells them or they learn in some other way.

While that's not wrong, do you understand that language "the messages" inform people's thinking? And therefore actions? It creates rape culture, creates rapists!

I agree. But how do we go about changing this?

"But if the girls feel that their lives are so bad that free drink and drugs from dodgy characters seems like a good idea..." They deserve to be raped?!

I didn't say that. My point was that no poster is going to have an effect on a girl in that position - or possibly on anyone. I didn't say, or intend to imply, that they deserve to be raped. Of course they don't.

I've just noticed something else too - this campaign is calling victims "animals" not rapists.

And I missed that as well. Thanks for pointing it out.

But I don't agree with others who've said everyone knows this already

I understand where you're coming from but I think on balance the negative effect of the statement (i.e. the message to men that they can get away with it) outweighs any positive. And yes I knew all these things when I got raped. At the house of a nice man who invited me back and I had a nice time at. In W Yorks.

That poster is deeply offensive.
The price I paid for getting married was rape. The other time it was a male friend I had known for a decade. No house parties, no free stuff, no drinks or drugs. And even if it had been, as many posters have more elegantly said, go after the perpetrators. Sheesh

"When and where do girls learn this?"

How about from all the news reports about other victims? Social media by RESPONSIBLE posters (certainly not wyp)? adults that care for them (even children not being raised at home have carers)? Or even more sadly personal experience? I was aware that men were dangerous arseholes pretty much as soon as I could talk - because my father was one of them! A fact he confirmed in this context when I reached my teens.

And he wasn't even the first, the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 10 and it was in the school playground by a 12 year old boy. I told the (female) teacher who told me to "not tell tales and make a fuss".

At this point in my late 40's I've lost count of how many times and by how many boys/men I've been harassed, assaulted, hit, pushed, grabbed... and I don't think my experience is particularly unusual with the exception of my dads crap and even that I don't believe is as rare as claimed.

And even IF the argument is "raise awareness" then it's HOW it's raised that's at issue.

As anyfucker and many others on this thread have said they COULD have done a campaign aimed at perpetrators which would STILL have outlined the risky behaviour OF perpetrators and that would alert/educate potential victims too.

"It's not the messages that do that, it's the violent men. That's what we need to tackle." While that's not wrong, do you understand that language "the messages" inform people's thinking? And therefore actions? It creates rape culture, creates rapists! Do some reading up on how the language we use informs thought patterns and value judgements, there's TONS of research on this.

There's a line in "dangerous minds" that is an excellent précis on Chomskian theory on the link between languages and thought.

"Words are thoughts and we can't think without them" but WHAT people think is formed by the language they are exposed to and use. It's why countries that share a language share strong cultural elements also. I believe (Iirc its been a while since I read up) that Chomsky did a major research on the differences between American and British English and how that affects the 2 cultures.

Jokes and other poor messages about victims make potential perpetrators feel entitled, protected and safe! You want rapists feeling safe to rape? Because at the moment if you're a white male there's VERY little deterrent, if you're a RICH white male there's fuck all deterrent! And if you're an athletic, rich, white, male you're a fucking hero! It's all kinds of fucked up!

It doesn't even affect their "reputations" negatively, their families, bosses, friends, sports clubs all stand by them and support them and vilify victims.

Or have you not heard of the likes of ched Evans, or the Irish rugby players, or Brock turner?

"How do you explain the girls who became victims of the grooming gangs, then? Some of them thought the men who were raping them and selling them to other men were their 'boyfriends'. It's been suggested that this campaign is aimed at girls who are likely to fall victim to these gangs. The ones who have in the past certainly didn't see the dangers until they'd already become victims."

AGAIN if a campaign was worded and focused on pointing out certain behaviours as immoral, illegal and damaging to victims then potential victims would STILL be educated, the DIFFERENCE is they wouldn't ALSO be getting BLAMED!

I've just noticed something else too - this campaign is calling victims "animals" not rapists.

"But if the girls feel that their lives are so bad that free drink and drugs from dodgy characters seems like a good idea..." They deserve to be raped?!

"I’m sure all women and girls have stories of men who could have raped them if they wanted to but it never happened because they were not with a rapist."'yep I've plenty of those too!

"The expectation that women should always be "sensible" is rape culture." Exactly!

NO such expectations on boys/men!

Being around a person who will rape you, is increasing your risk of being raped.

Well said. Also I imagine the partner of a rapist is much more unlikely to view them raping them as a rape let alone report it as one.

in some ways I see where you're coming from but the answer to that side of things isn't slut shaming or party girl threats. it's education, outreach programmes and access to safe spaces to sleep or talk or whatever else.

I agree. And I haven't advocated slut shaming or victim blaming. But I don't agree with others who've said everyone knows this already. I think we can be too complacent about things we know and think are obvious to everyone, and forget that young people from all sorts of backgrounds might have missed that bit of their education, for all sorts of reasons.

Teenage girls seeing this won't register it at all. It just says "police think you're at fault". What it does is paint a picture of police blaming drunk or recreationally drugged girls and that's counterproductive in every sense. It speaks the worst message to every audience.

I agree with this as well. I don't think it would have had any effect on me as a teenager. I'd just have got on with having fun - despite any risks that I knew I was taking or was unaware of.

The expectation that women should always be "sensible" is rape culture.

If you walk along with your iPhone on display and someone steals it out of your hand, they won’t be let off because maybe they thought you were handing it to them.

I think it's important to remember that there are overlaps and grey areas. So do you risk getting out your phone in a dodgy area or do you walk or take an offered lift or a minicab?

Do you keep ringing that taxi that hasn't turned up or do you go to the party with your nice male friend?

And you don't have long to decide. Chop chop.

Thanks for the clarification, Pywife.

I can categorically say I’ve never been raped or sexually assaulted at a house party where there was free stuff and men I didn’t know. So is it house parties that are the danger, free stuff, men you don’t know or is it something else? If they are the lions den of rape encounters, what was so special about me that I didn’t get raped at one?

I’m sure all women and girls have stories of men who could have raped them if they wanted to but it never happened because they were not with a rapist. I’m sure many women and girls can also tell you stories about men they trusted, respected, admired, loved, and cared for who abused that and raped or sexually assaulted them without warning.

We don’t make our selves vulnerable, we are vulnerable by virtue of being women. We know this in other aspects of life and it’s terrifying to accept how little control we have over whether this will happen to us or not. But you cannot control other people’s behaviour, and you cannot be held responsible for other people’s behaviour. This poster and all it’s predecessors work on the assumption that women control men’s want to rape them through their actions. If it were really true you must have a low opinion of women in general to think we’re flaunting ourselves left, right and centre at men we believe to be rapists without a thought to the consequences.

Do you think a couple of warning posters up telling young girls not to wear short skirts and high heels would have stopped the grooming gangs? Really?

Of course not. And that's not what the posters say. The posters were warning about men giving girls and women drink and drugs - which is why it seemed to be about grooming gangs. But if the girls feel that their lives are so bad that free drink and drugs from dodgy characters seems like a good idea, I'm not sure the posters would have any effect.

Do you not think that actually valuing women, instead of thinking of them as cheap sluts who deserve what they get for being female, policing these areas, and arresting the men as soon as they were seen behaving aggressively and not excusing their actions in every possible way might have had somewhat more of an impact?

Yes.

OldCrone in some ways I see where you're coming from but the answer to that side of things isn't slut shaming or party girl threats. it's education, outreach programmes and access to safe spaces to sleep or talk or whatever else. Teaching girls to look out for themselves and each other. About consent and what it means. Healthy relationships. Empowering them, giving them something different, whatever you want to call it. How to make better decisions because they have a goal in mind. That's why we need our taxes to pay for community programmes. People who know their language, know their lives and can speak to them in a way that makes sense.

Teenage girls seeing this won't register it at all. It just says "police think you're at fault". What it does is paint a picture of police blaming drunk or recreationally drugged girls and that's counterproductive in every sense. It speaks the worst message to every audience.

That wasn't aimed at you, Oldcrone, it was general, like my first comment.

I explain it on the girls' side by their lack of knowledge or opportunities to escape to any other kind of life. They turned to drugs instead. Even better, I would explain it by the men involved being predators who were enabled to go about their predations legitimately. Do you think a couple of warning posters up telling young girls not to wear short skirts and high heels would have stopped the grooming gangs? Really?

Do you not think that actually valuing women, instead of thinking of them as cheap sluts who deserve what they get for being female, policing these areas, and arresting the men as soon as they were seen behaving aggressively and not excusing their actions in every possible way might have had somewhat more of an impact?

While on the surface this may just seem like “good advice” to stay safe, part of the problem is that it feeds into the wider narrative that women are “asking for it”.

If you leave your house unlocked and you get burgled, some people may think you were a bit silly. But if the burglar is caught, they won’t get off on the grounds that your window was open so they assumed you didn’t mind them coming in and picking some stuff up.

If you walk along with your iPhone on display and someone steals it out of your hand, they won’t be let off because maybe they thought you were handing it to them.

It is only women who not only have to take precautions (like we don’t know!), but will also see their attacker’s culpability denied if they are seen not to have taken what society seems to be sufficient precautions.

That’s what this poster reinforces - when what we need to address is men’s behaviour, including those who seem “nice” but don’t understand consent. Most rapists aren’t hiding in bushes waiting for women to walk past, they’re “normal” men.

It's not the messages that do that, it's the violent men. That's what we need to tackle.

I agree with that. So send out messages and put up posters tackling them, not us.

I can assure you that girls not being looked after are even more likely to learn these messages early.

How do you explain the girls who became victims of the grooming gangs, then? Some of them thought the men who were raping them and selling them to other men were their 'boyfriends'. It's been suggested that this campaign is aimed at girls who are likely to fall victim to these gangs. The ones who have in the past certainly didn't see the dangers until they'd already become victims.

What this sort of thing doesn't acknowledge is that these young women who maybe do let loose once in a while are still undoubtedly risk assessing consciously and subconsciously every other frickin moment of their lives. We know that because we all do it. From the moment we understand that being female places us in a unique sort of danger we then carry that knowledge and it affects our behaviour, confidence and safety every single day in every single way for the rest of our lives.

That's another reason it's so infuriating.

When and where do girls learn this? From parents - if they have responsible parents. From school - as long as they attend. What about the girls who have irresponsible parents or are in care, and aren't attending school regularly?

Are you kidding? I started learning about how dangerous it was to be female very early on. I already knew that boys in school were always in fights and would pick on anyone by Juniors. My own father was capable of throwing things around the house in fits of temper. Women and girls' behaviour was far more closely policed, such things weren't acceptable. Aggressive behaviour associated with sex started when I was about 9 or so, although I didn't know what it was they meant by the things they shouted at me and the groping. Then I started hearing all the media messages about how women had to look after themselves everywhere, or it would be all their own fault. I heard the law cases of rape victims my age and younger being cross-examined about what skirt they chose to wear, as if it meant anything other than pretty in the aesthetics chosen for us by our culture. I heard everywhere that what men did was entirely up to them and perfectly legitimate, but the females that happened to be their victims were always the ones to blame.

I can assure you that girls not being looked after are even more likely to learn these messages early. And do you really think boys and men do not hear the same messages that I did??