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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?

247 replies

Bluestitch · 13/03/2019 23:54

Don't know if anybody has posted this already, lovely bit of victim blaming there. I'm not even surprised anymore.

mobile.twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1105821309701894145

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MoltenLasagne · 15/03/2019 15:09

The ongoing misogyny of WYP is a sight to behold. Yet again they seem to view rape victims as a difficulty to deal with, rather than realising that their job is to deal with and stop rapists.

If they really wanted to prevent grooming gangs raping girls at house parties, one of the things they could do would be a poster campaign along the lines of: "Grooming gangs are operating at house parties in this area. If you're at a house party and something doesn't feel right, you can rely on us to come collect you no questions asked, even if you've been drinking underage or doing drugs. YOUR SAFETY IS OUR PRIORITY."

Hell it may take a bit of funding but apparently WYP have quite a lot of it to spare.

Or they could even just go for a campaign teaching girls to assert their boundaries. "If someone's making you uncomfortable, it's okay to leave or move, even if you feel like it may be rude. Trust your gut. You don't have to be polite to creeps." But we all know why they won't go for that one...

Ereshkigal · 15/03/2019 13:18

They're happy enough to single out transphobia for special attention.

Ereshkigal · 15/03/2019 13:17

Yes obviously, but as there is a specific problem with male violence against women and girls for different reasons to male on male violence, and that women are considered to be a disadvantaged class, it would be nice for once for them to say this. But they're a bunch of misogynists, so they won't.

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 12:09

Zero tolerance to violence against anyone

Ereshkigal · 15/03/2019 12:05

In any of its guises.

Ereshkigal · 15/03/2019 12:04

Zero tolerance to male violence against women and girls? No?

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 12:01

Indeed.

HermioneWeasley · 15/03/2019 12:00

This explains a lot

WTAF is wrong with West Yorkshire Police?
hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 11:54

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming.

Yes, in my replies I have agreed that the "price to be paid" narrative is problematic and can be victim blaming, however it resonates with issues that police dealing with grooming / trafficking networks deal with on a day to day basis, as I described in an earlier post.

I suspect that part of the problem is that law enforcement are dealing with a massive problem and they have identified, quite correctly, that a central aspect of grooming for CSA is gift giving that later is used to coerce kids into CSA using a narrative re debts that need to be paid.

The police think that the answer is to educate kids about this and make a bot of a dog's breakfast of it.

Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already.

Surely it is the perpetrators who are the "animals" in the narrative? Actually this is probably where the cops are going wrong - I think the inference is "party animals may just be predatory beasts" but it far from clear and could be interpreted as girls being equated with animals.

Tone is everything!

agreed

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 11:49

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming. Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already

^ this

Graphista · 15/03/2019 11:45

"how ordinary people like me could make a real change, I'd like to hear them. That's what I was looking for"

challenge ads & campaigns like the one under discussion

Pull up the boys and men (or even girls and women sadly misogyny and victim blaming isn't restricted to males) in your own life if they make inappropriate comments

Raise such issues with your politicians from councillor up to mp

Use sm to challenge public figures who make inappropriate comments

Use your vote to vote for politicians who support victims and women generally

Support charities - doesn't have to be with money - who are working to change this

Raise awareness generally within your own circle, speak out

"I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming." NOBODY has said that educating children as to the risks is victim blaming!

Those of us arguing against the ad are saying HOW this ad attempts to go about it is victim blaming. Calling victims party ANIMALS, saying if they don't avoid the risks they may "pay the price" this has all been said several times already.

Tone is everything!

No privileged life here either, home was violent, unpredictable and sexually abusive. Have also had 2 major but not quite rape sexual assaults outside of that situation too. So not an "armchair theorist" either.

We can educate without blaming and we should be - that absolutely could change overnight, attitudes will of course take much longer unfortunately

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 11:40

I would of thought it obvious I was responding to OldCrone considering I used their words. I wasn’t responding to you. I said not one thing about you or anyone else being privileged. So I really don’t know what the hell your comment is about or why it’s directed at me

If you read the thread you will be able to see why I misunderstood who you were replying to. You referred to the "two of you" and OldCrone and I were agreeing with one another so it was not unreasonable to deduce that you were referring to two people who were in agreement.

Thank you for the clarification though, I appreciate it

I really don't want a fight with anyone, I would rather we were all kind to each other as I think we all want the same thing, to protect the vulnerable from harm

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 11:34

Most of us are just armchair theorists, and some, like me, have had really very privileged and comfortable lives

These are OldCrones words which I responded to. I really thought it was obvious what I was responding to, but for clarity, there it is. I objected to myself being lumped in as privileged. Not that you were!

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 11:32

rather than to police and prevent thinking.

Nobody policed your thinking or anyone else’s. It’s an exchange of opinions, OldCrone made assumptions about others, I objected, that clarified. Nobody prevents anyone else from ‘thinking’

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 11:31

hoodathunkit
I would of thought it obvious I was responding to OldCrone considering I used their words.
I wasn’t responding to you. I said not one thing about you or anyone else being privileged. So I really don’t know what the hell your comment is about or why it’s directed at me

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 11:27

Well I, with a completely different view to the two of you, have not had a privileged life and was out in my own when a teenager. Please do not assume ‘most of us’ are armchair theorists. I’m a victim of gang rape by teens and was abused by my father. Don’t make assumptions about contributors.

I am not aware that I had made assumptions about anyone posting here.

You read my posts and think I had a privileged life? Really?

I do not consider that the fact I survived grooming, trafficking, rape etc. means that I should have the last word on this subject.

I am always interested to think about issues and discuss things with others.

I would hope that we are all open to thinking and reflecting upon these sensitive issues regardless of whatever traumas we have endured.

JessicaWakefieldSVH

I am sorry that you endured terrible things. I did too, some things I endured were the same as you, some different.

While I think it is always important to listen to victims and survivors I feel strongly that personal narratives should be used to assist with thinking about sensitive and difficult subjects, rather than to police and prevent thinking.

I hope that we can continue to think about these issues together in a respectful way.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 11:27

This is about the specific poster. It’s about how language impacts victims and public attitudes. If we can do better, we should.

OldCrone · 15/03/2019 11:23

Sorry Jessica, I should have said 'some of us', not 'most'. I realised that after posting. My recognition of how comfortable my own life has been has been partly informed by things I have read on MN, including this thread.

Sorry about the repetition. That was in response to the poster who said that my meaning was unclear in some of my posts, and that I hadn't said things that I had said in earlier posts.

You say you have a different view, but surely we can all agree about this:

Surely we must do whatever we can to protect children from abuse.

How we go about doing this is the only real question.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 15/03/2019 10:52

Well I, with a completely different view to the two of you, have not had a privileged life and was out in my own when a teenager. Please do not assume ‘most of us’ are armchair theorists. I’m a victim of gang rape by teens and was abused by my father. Don’t make assumptions about contributors.

And yes, you are being over repetitive.

OldCrone · 15/03/2019 10:38

Thanks for your thoughtful posts on this hoodathunkit. It's really informative to see the perspective of someone who's 'been there'. Most of us are just armchair theorists, and some, like me, have had really very privileged and comfortable lives. Something that we're not always aware of until we are shown the experiences of others.

I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming.

This is really what I've been saying all through this thread. And working towards a better world where men no longer rape and exploit women doesn't help the women and girls who are being raped and exploited right now. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be working towards a better society, just that such a thing won't happen overnight, and in the meantime more girls and women will suffer. We should be finding a way to help girls and women who need that help right now, as well as working towards a better world where men cease to rape and exploit women and girls.

I feel I'm being overly repetitive in an effort not to be misunderstood yet again.

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 10:14

I would be very interested in thinking creatively about how to better protect children and vulnerable adults from abuse and exploitation.

I would be interested in people's thoughts on this video

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 10:12

I do not agree with the narratives here that posit that providing children with education warning them about risks from predators is victim blaming.

Surely we must do whatever we can to protect children from abuse.

There may be an inherent risk that narratives could be victim blaming and we should be aware of that and avoid it.

Punishing perpetrators and educating vulnerable minors are not mutually exclusive surely?

It's all very well saying Using BETTER language, BETTER messages. Place the blame where it belongs, educate the potential perpetrators, show support to victims..., which I agree with 100%, but in practical terms how do we get that message out there? I'm not the police force, I don't run an advertising agency, I'm not in charge of a school, I'm not a politician, and I'm not an experienced activist. If you have more experience and ideas about how we could do this - that is, how ordinary people like me could make a real change, I'd like to hear them. That's what I was looking for"

this

OldCrone · 15/03/2019 09:54

and yet you say nothing about teaching boys/young about consent, about NOT being rapists, about respecting girls/women generally and specifically respecting boundaries and sexual consent?

I acknowledged a couple of posts earlier in the thread where people had suggested wording for posters saying just those things. In fact I think it was mentioned quite a lot in the early part of this thread. I've made quite a lot of posts on this thread, and occasionally I've stopped myself making yet another post with the thought 'I've said that already' and feel that point has been made and I don't need to repeat myself yet again.

Really? You can't think?

This is just inflammatory. Two answers. At the end of that post, I nearly said 'I'm too tired to think right now, I'm going to bed'. So at that point in time, no, I couldn't think. The real answer, though, is that I was looking for practical solutions. It's all very well saying Using BETTER language, BETTER messages. Place the blame where it belongs, educate the potential perpetrators, show support to victims..., which I agree with 100%, but in practical terms how do we get that message out there? I'm not the police force, I don't run an advertising agency, I'm not in charge of a school, I'm not a politician, and I'm not an experienced activist. If you have more experience and ideas about how we could do this - that is, how ordinary people like me could make a real change, I'd like to hear them. That's what I was looking for.

The best message wyp could send? Focus resources on finding and prosecuting rapists! Rather than creating (and probably wasting a significant amount of money and time!) offensive ad campaigns blaming victims!

The best message our govt could send? Mandatory full life sentence for rape! I'm pretty sure that would significantly reduce the number occurring!

I agree with all of this.

I believe you didn't intend that meaning but can you see how it was implied in what you said?

Not really. I thought it was clear that I was referring to the posters having no effect on girls in that situation. I also thought it was clear from some of my previous posts that I didn't think any of the girls who were victims of those gangs were in any way to blame for what happened to them. That said, it's easy to misunderstand people on forums like this, and I've done it myself a number of times.

hoodathunkit · 15/03/2019 09:42

I have been thinking about this thread over the last day and just wanted to share some thoughts.

I was trafficked as a teenager by a much older male who initially treated me like someone very special, along with gifts, including gifts of drugs, but who subsequently went on to blackmail me (threatened to send compromising photos to my parents) and to control me through violence and through threats of violence towards my family.

This is an incredibly delicate and sensitive issue.

As a child who grew up in an abusive, highly controlling and otherwise dysfunctional family, I was desperate for an older person who would show me love and guidance. The pimp was able to identify and target me because of my vulnerability, my wish to be grown up and my very strong desire to escape from my family.

Obviously not all trafficking victims / survivors came from families like mine. Some victims are simply adolescents going through the usual confusion and vulnerability that kids typically experience around puberty.

It is extremely difficult for a young person to believe that their new friend / boyfriend (in some instances girlfriend) is a pimp / predator.

The way that pimps (individually and in groups) groom young people is very similar to the ways that cults recruit followers / victims.

They start with love bombing and with claims that the victim is "special" in some way. The provision of gifts, which can take many forms, is a mundane and usual element of the modus operandi.

Little by little they become more controlling and move abusive and they always, always alienate the victim from anyone who genuinely loves them and cares for them and manipulate the victim into a relationship based upon control, dependency and fear.

One very common feature of both cults and pimps is that the "gifts" they offer in the honeymoon period are later defined as debts. The victims must pay everything back and usually this is impossible so the victim becomes enslaved.

This happens in many instances of sexual exploitation. Women who seek help from people smugglers to enable them to work in the sex industry overseas frequently end up enslaved by and in debt bondage to, criminals who charge them exorbitant fees for travel, forged documents, a roof over their heads and even clothes, shoes and condoms.

People are often lured into cults by retreats and courses on personal development, meditation, yoga etc. and may over time be exploited as a source of unpaid labour and may be pressurised and coerced into donating all their assets to the cult. People with sufficient resilience to leave are often served with invoices detailing extortionate fees for courses and retreats they attended (in some instances that they never attended) they they thought were free or already paid for. I know several people that this has happened to. The lives of vulnerable people are ruined by this kind of extortion.

Once a person is involved with a cult or a pimp, it can be too late warn them about anything. At that point the vulnerable person will be alienated from their loved ones and will have existed in a cultural vacuum in which whatever the pimp / cult leader says must be true.

One of the common features of pimps and cult leaders is that their modus operandi for exploiting vulnerable people starts with a period of “befriending”, this is often referred to as “grooming”.

I can personally testify to just how disheartening it is to try to warn people that they will be abused once they are involved with a cult or a pimp.

I have been treated with absolute contempt and derision by the very people I have tried to help. I no longer even try to persuade anyone of anything in regard to their cult or pimp. The Stockholm syndrome effectively means that, in such circumstances, I become the enemy, at least in the victim’s eyes.

The question remains - how do we educate vulnerable people about the perils of accepting “gifts” when the gift is not a gift?

We all know that, if we ask a Mafia Don for “help” with a sensitive issue, that there is a price to be paid, that later on we will need to return the favour in some way that may be compromising, criminal or otherwise dangerous and undesirable.

We have all heard of the warning “beware of Greeks bearing gifts” and the story behind the warning.

We will have read the story of Hansel and Gretel and understand why it is not a good idea to nibble at the walls of a gingerbread house in the woods, no matter how hungry we might be.

I am thinking of these examples as the police poster is focussed on the "bait and switch" element of the grooming process. The police have highlighted the fact that what a young person might reasonably consider to be a gift will be considered to be a debt that will lead to them being abused and exploited.

The words “price to be paid” are the problematic words, or so it seems to me. The poster could arguably be interpreted as saying that the victims of grooming groups / pimps are indebted to their exploiters. That when they accept the gifts they are entering into an unwritten contract that will enslave them.

I wonder whether a more nuanced message might be appropriate, for no other reason than that this unwritten debt contract is not worth the paper it is written on. The victims never were in debt to their exploiters, no mater what the exploiters claim.

I am wondering whether, rather than advising young people not to accept gifts from dubious persons (although the “don’t take sweets from stagers” and “don’t go off to look at puppies with a stranger” have long been narratives in pedagogy, it might be more effective to educate them about contract law? Maybe we need new fairy tales for children, where Hansel and Gretel tell the police and social services about the witch and her gingerbread house?

I am not really offering solutions here, just thinking aloud. I do think that we need to start educating children at an early age about the risks of exploitation and the forms that such exploitation might take, however this needs to be done with sensitivity and without traumatising children.

I can understand why the police have created this poster, however I feel it is badly worded.

I do not believe that it is victim blaming to try to warn young people about the modus operandi of pimps and traffickers, however buying into the idea that by accepting gifts that you really are in debt is unhelpful.

Graphista · 15/03/2019 07:32

In our dreams dmssidekick in our dreams

Entire uk judicial system needs an overhaul. We regularly have JUDGES making the most appalling misogynistic, victim blaming crap in summing up! That is not even comments they're making off the cuff (which would be bad enough).but speeches they have written over several days!

When things are this bad we need to start from scratch!

Scrap the "old boys network" bollocks that makes it damn hard for any but rich, white men to even become judges, make it more possible for ordinary people especially women to become judges.

Stamp down hard on ALL levels of male sexual violence, from harassment up. INCLUDING at sentencing.,