Grayson Perry irks me

Floisme

That's really interesting how you talk about the clothes. They aren't just articles of clothing but are having an effect on how you feel.

I don't find it inconceivable that some men might well have similar feelings around wearing traditionally female clothing.

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?
OK I wear men's clothes sometimes, as do lots of women. Nothing outlandish but I'm wearing a men's jumper at the moment and when I go out, I may wear a men's tweed jacket.

My reasons? Um... I like them. I like the oversized fit. The quality's a lot better than it is for women's clothing at the same price. And yeah I have noticed that the way I walk and stand is different which I find interesting. But I have never once got any kind of sexual thrill out of it. Whether that's true of all women, I don't know but this, for me, is a the big difference. In my naivity I had never even considered before discovering FWR that men who wear women's clothes might have any other motive other than just liking them. It's been an eye opener to be sure.

So you don't know and don't care why some women make a definite decision to dress in a certain way but you care very much, and apply judgements, to a man dressing in a certain way?

Correct. One interests me, the other doesn't.

Datun

So you don't know and don't care why some women make a definite decision to dress in a certain way but you care very much, and apply judgements, to a man dressing in a certain way?

Ok.

I think my disquiet about all of this is that if we take issue with a man "dressing as a woman" then we have to suppose that a woman dresses in a certain way. That creates the difficulty for me because it is saying that being a woman has "a look".

We don't say that a man wearing jeans and t shirt is dressing as a woman do we, yet most women do wear jeans and a t shirt. A lit of men wear make up and yet that isn't such a big deal anymore. This argument is centering on quite a specific look that is being determined as female. But why? Why are we insisting on clinging onto that stereotype of determining a certain style as being only for women?

By which I mean, I don't care

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?

Are you asking me? I have no idea! You'd have to ask them.

no-one ever said women don't have internalised misogyny Weetabixandshreddies

So are you saying that women who have a problem with men wearing traditionally female clothes have internalised misogyny?

I think the thing is not many men just casually sling on a dress. Some do, and fine. But mainly not, and women who sling on a shirt and jeans don't tend to glue on a beard, or something that is obviously meant to be 'manly'. That in itself doesn't mean it has to be wrong, but it is different.
The fact that men often refer to themselves as cross-dressers or transvestites suggests they see it differently too.
I think I'm talking myself out of my own naivety here. I still think clothes should be for anyone, but not sure it would affect the need to imitate/parody or whatever women in some way.

I still feel that the way he dresses is offensive womanface, regardless of what he now says is his motivation Why? Why can’t a man have dresses made for him and wear make up without it being womanface?

Women who wear mens clothes do it for a variety of reasons, I imagine. None of them to do with a fetish.

Well what are the reasons then? It's clearly making a statement so what is it?

no-one ever said women don't have internalised misogyny Weetabixandshreddies

GP has said that he was initially 'dressing as a woman'

I still feel that the way he dresses is offensive womanface, regardless of what he now says is his motivation

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

I agree. GP says he is not dressing as a woman, but is a man in a dress- made for him not purchased in women’s sections.

Women who wear mens clothes do it for a variety of reasons, I imagine. None of them to do with a fetish.

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

But in this discussion it is potentially women looking at it as "dressing as a woman" rather than the man who is wearing the clothes, who might very well see himself as a man wearing clothes. Isn't that us fetishising the way women look then?

Women do not fetishise men by wearing their clothes.

So women who wear men's clothes ( and I am talking about actual.men's clothes rather than trousers made for women) do it for what reason? What statement is being made there? Or women who dress to look like men - who wear a tux for example rather than traditional evening dresses, or who go for a very butch look - what is their motivation for doing that?

I just think that by continuing to label certain clothes or looks as being female you perpetuate stereotypes. If you want to break down stereotypes then you have to relinquish claim to those stereotypes.

essentially, if you look at it as 'dressing as a woman', then you are fetishising the way women look

Exactly datun

Men in my country wear kilts. Men in other countries wear robes and skirts

They are not fetishing women

If some men do it in order to get a reaction why give them the reaction that they want? Surely that takes the power back rather than being oppressed?

I’d want to read and listen to him more to fully understand, but in the link I posted Grayson says when he was younger the acceptable types of cross dresser, or the idea of what or who they were, was either comedy or sex obsessed crazy person. He took on the persona of Claire because he enjoyed the thrill and thought, that’s the one I choose. He got bored as it became less shocking etc and now says Claire doesn’t exist and he’s just a man in a dress looking ridiculous. I may have not worded that well! Hell cystitis is driving me crazy!

Why is it so controversial to treat a man out and about wearing a dress in exactly the same way as a woman out and about in jeans and a lumber jack shirt?

Because of the inherent power dynamic between men and women. I'm not sure why you're not getting this. Women wearing men's clothing is punching up because men aren't oppressed.

It doesn't work the other way round.

It's not about the clothes. It's about the power dynamic. The clothes merely represent that.

If everyone wore the same clothes, it would address the issue of clothes indicating the power dynamic.

It wouldn't solve the actual power dynamic.

Women do not fetishise men by wearing their clothes.

Has anyone read Philippa Perry's books? I read the Guardian article too and was impressed. Ordered on Amazon as I'm intrigued to know more.

It seems your above statement does concede their may be some men who cross dress in very feminine clothing, simply because they like it.

If it doesn't turn them on, then it's not a problem.

Ah. Women's oppression solved. Don't believe it, don't give power to it.

No you are totally twisting what I am saying. How are you managing to compare a man wearing a dress and gang banging?

Why is it so controversial to treat a man out and about wearing a dress in exactly the same way as a woman out and about in jeans and a lumber jack shirt? Do you feel demeaned or humiliated by that? If some men do it in order to get a reaction why give them the reaction that they want? Surely that takes the power back rather than being oppressed?

When men wear feminine clothing, but don't dress 'as a woman', it's to be encouraged, because it's a step in the right direction

I agree.

I love him, and think he is an absolutely brilliant artist and a national treasure as a person.

Clearly his incredibly intelligent and together wife doesn't have an issue with his cross-dressing.

Cross-dressing can actually be an anti-essentialist feminist praxis: this has, in fact, been a major strand over the last 30 years. The way that people on this forum talk about feminism without knowing the first thing about it is annoying. Go away and do the reading before spouting off.