Grayson Perry irks me

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

But is that because it's not quite so glaringly obvious it is sexual? Like there's a line of what sexual fetish is acceptable to walk into work/down the street or not. Someone dressed as a baby for example or something like this?

No, he was used as an example of a man who would wear a dress without claiming to be a woman

Perry has never claimed to be a woman- far from it. Still failing to see any merit in setting a hebephile up as better than Grayson Perry.

"Claire" is supposed to be a little girl

I think she's actually supposed to be a rag doll. (See also Alan Measles, his teddy.) I do genuinely see it as a form of artistic expression, and all that I've read and heard about Perry supports this.

I admit I could be wrong, of course. Men do sometimes involve children in their sexual fetishes and that is abusive, no question, and completely unacceptable. I just don't agree that's what Perry is doing.

I support gender non-conformity. I don't think you have to be trans or a fetishist to be a non-conformist. I am against gender conformity and the way we are supposed to fit ourselves into boxes. Many women cross dress by wearing clothes from the men's section and it shouldn't be a big deal. We should do away with the sections altogether and let clothes be clothes (as the campaign goes).

Observing whether someone who is cross dressing is having an orgasm or not, isn't, fully enough, the arbiter of whether or not cross dressing is a fetish

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

Geraldine's father's case is specific to Geraldine and her father. You cannot extrapolate from that that Perry and the man sitting next to me at the opera are causing harm (well you , personally, can if you want but don't rope me in)

No, i didnt say you were but I'm wondering how a woman can be a crossdresser. Are there any famous female cross dressers?

Whisky2014
So according to you, I'm a cross dresser?

Ok cool, so it is a sexual fetish.

I wonder if we all were so accepting and it being so normal for a man to dress like a woman and we didn't take a double look or whatever, people like Perry wouldn't get the humiliation he requires to fulfil his fetish because well, it's the norm.

Well yes.

But they would then have to find some other way to indicate that they are to be humiliated 'like a woman' in order to get aroused.

Perhaps wear prosthetic breasts? I don't know, they will find a way.

Because it's not the clothes, it's the power dynamic. The clothes are just a (current) marker.

Observing whether someone who is cross dressing is having an orgasm or not, isn't, fully enough, the arbiter of whether or not cross dressing is a fetish.

I wonder if we all were so accepting and it being so normal for a man to dress like a woman and we didn't take a double look or whatever, people like Perry wouldn't get the humiliation he requires to fulfil his fetish because well, it's the norm.

I see Bowie is still being roped into support the gender critical case.

No, he was used as an example of a man who would wear a dress without claiming to be a woman. Like Eddie Izzard used to, until he decided he was actually 'trans' and had the right to harass teenage girls in the ladies' toilets.

You can see inside people's heads can you?

I was thinking of stuff like this. I don't think you have to be a mind-reader to know this is a fetish.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/03/my-life-in-sex

I let the sales ladies know I am shopping for myself. As I pay, I smile and wink, as if to say, “I am enjoying this even if you aren’t.”

We're not talking about David Bowie or Kurt Cobain wearing a dress

I see Bowie is still being roped into support the gender critical case. Aside from the fact the argument is rather weak given Bowie's costumes were stage props rather than every day wear it's ironic a man who had sex with a 14 year old girl is held up as some sort of icon in comparison with Grayson Perry.

What about Geraldine's post above LasaifFyvie?

Do you have any thoughts on that experience?

That's a bit different to yours at the opera isn't it?

I'm not btw.

I didn't think you would be, which is why I didn't expand further in that post.

Yeh that's what I mean. Lie of course women wear trousers but they are generally "women's trousers". It would be noticeable if we all started dressing like our husbands, dads or grandads etc. And I'm not sure how it could be exaggerated in the way male to female cross dressers dress.
It seems to me that there is a sexual element to it in some way.

Men who cross dress for a fetish and insist that others participate in their fetish are also unacceptable. Men who cross-dress in order to mock and parody women and make them uncomfortable are unacceptable

You can see inside people's heads can you? I once sat through a very long opera sitting next to a very obvious cross- dresser. I had spotted him as I walked into the theatre and obviously all the way to our respective seats. Beyond thinking "blimey- that takes some nerve" I had no idea what his motives were. He didn't at any point have an orgasm.

I can expand further on this if you're interested

I'm not btw.

I realise that some people here regard what Perry is doing as a kind of playfulness - a way of challenging masculinity by embodying an extreme, stylised version of femininity. I think for others of us it feels more like a mocking of femininity, a cruel parody. "Claire" is supposed to be a little girl but doesn't look like any little girl I know - I wonder how real girls feel about seeing a grown man dressed in this way. Do they think he's making fun of them?

What id assume a female crossdresser would be wearing is stuff bought in "men's section" shops.

Does that include buying their jeans and t-shirts from the men's section? Because I do that all the time.

Most women wear jeans and t shirts - is that cross dressing? nope. What id assume a female crossdresser would be wearing is stuff bought in "men's section" shops. I dont think I have ever seen it!

Perry isnt cross dressing as a social or sartorial commentary.

He's doing it because it gives him a boner. He says it's tied up with humiliation and BDSM. He is perfectly open about it.

Inhabiting a 'woman' is arousing to him, because of his early exposure to explicit porn.

I like that he talks about it and it is open about it. But it is exactly the same as the AGP men who lie about it and try and access women's changing rooms.

The fact that he doesn't do that is positive.

I do, of course, have an issue with the fetish itself. Whilst completely understanding that it's not Perry's fault for having it.

The issue is why do men acquire a fetish that means they get aroused over the humiliation of women?

When women say men should be able to wear anything they like, it's in the context of clothing, not in the context of getting aroused by presenting as a woman.

This isn't complicated.

Going back to Philippa Perry, she recently did a BBC4 doco on the history of the agony aunt. It's here:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0555vjj

The first third of it has some interesting comments from her on transvestism.

Do your clothes turn you on enough to give you an orgasm?

Well, I've never seen GP (or any other cross dresser to be fair) having an orgasm in public.

Do other people wear clothing to turn them on and then express that in private? I reckon they do

How do you distinguish acceptable cross dressers from non acceptable?

My view, LassOfFyvie, is that men who put on a dress simply because it's what they like to wear are acceptable. Men who put on a dress and insist that by doing so they have actually become women are not. Men who cross dress for a fetish and insist that others participate in their fetish are also unacceptable. Men who cross-dress in order to mock and parody women and make them uncomfortable are unacceptable.

I can expand further on this if you're interested.

How many female to male cross dressers are there?
How do you define cross dressing?

Most women wear jeans and t shirts - is that cross dressing?

What is that equivalent for men?

If a man simply wore a dress, so no make up etc would you view that as cross dressing?