Grayson Perry irks me

Can you please explain how is that relevant to cross dressing fetishism?

Others have said the issue is its a sexual fetish he derives sexual pleasure from because of the reactions of others. That’s the comparison I’m making.

Thank you for understanding trousering. That was sort of the point of my post.

I'm very interested in the way certain feminist posters are attempting to police (good FWR phrase there) what other people wear.

Read my last post, Lass. People can wear wtf they want. But I don't want to be a non-consensual part of someone's fetish.

Geraldine, I am so sorry your post was ignored by people doing exactly what your family and professionals did to you. I believe you.

I’m on several threads and missed it. Not addressing it doesn’t mean we are in any way ignoring harm that occurred to Geraldine in her personal experience, or a denial of what her fathers intentions were. I’m of course sorry any child or woman had that experience. However, you cannot use that dreadfully sad story to make comparisons to what is being discussed here. I think it’s out of order to frame this conversation the way you have just because others have a different opinion on Graysons cross dressing.

Jessica

Can you please explain how is that relevant to cross dressing fetishism?

Perry doesn't show cleavage and thigh.

Lass you seem very good at taking quotes out of context. You also seem to be doing a lot of discussing for someone who isn't interested

I'm very interested in the way certain feminist posters are attempting to police (good FWR phrase there) what other people wear. And indeed contribute to the thread.

To be fair to GP, I think what is being overlooked here is that he is am extremely savvy old bird and cross-crossing had been a very successful way of promoting his work. (See the posters advertising his recent exhibition in Paris.). Would he have attracted the same level of interest wearing black jeans and a t-shirt?

And when you do, poppet, then you’ll understand.

I still don't understand what we are supposed to understand so I must be a poppet.

(..hangs head in shame)

What's am I missing about Greyson Perry's wife's name?

Anyone?

So if a woman dresses in such a way that ample cleavage and thigh is exposed, and gets a thrill out of the reactions she gets, is that unacceptable also? Because I know a lot of women that do that.

It's Perry saying its sexual. Perry. Not people, him, himself.

Blimey. You really don't want to believe him do you?

Geraldine, I am so sorry your post was ignored by people doing exactly what your family and professionals did to you. I believe you.

LassOfFyvie oh ffs yes im sure and I didn't mean thats only what I wear every single day of my life...

Perry has never claimed to be a woman- far from it.

Lass you seem very good at taking quotes out of context. You also seem to be doing a lot of discussing for someone who isn't interested.

I suggested four reasons for men to cross dress - I've added a 5th one here, and there may be others. There is also crossover between the groups.

1. Men who just like to dress like that, in the same way as a woman might choose to wear either a pretty dress or jeans and t-shirt - just because they like dressing that way.

1. Men who think they're women, or who think that wearing a dress makes them a woman.

1. Men who have a fetish and become aroused by cross dressing.

1. Men who do it to parody women - like blacking up.

1. Men who are predatory and do it in order to invade women's spaces.

I think Perry falls into group 3 from what he's said. The only group I find acceptable is group 1 - also 3 as long as they confine it to private spaces amongst other consenting adults.

Look. he's as much of a woman as my 'tranny mate' Steve is. Claire has better taste (which tells you a lot about Steve...)

I have zero issues with cross dressers who are men in frocks. They are as welcome to wear a dress as I am, or as welcome to wear trousers as I am. I do not care.

Claire doesn't always dress outrageously. When they were filiming at Liberty's a few years ago Claire was filmed browsing. He looked like any slightly bored, older secretary on her lunch. Sensible shoes, pleated skirt, blouse and cardigan. Claire only dresses up when on telly, doing shows etc.

My mate Steve does that on weekdays too. Shops in everday sensible womens clothes, including jeans and a t-shirt!

So not all cross dresers go for the weird way out clothing!

I wear leggings or jeans...Why are no male cross dressers wearing "normal" boring, every day women's or men's clothes?!

Because they are boring? I don't wear leggings or jeans for that reason.

This is just a personal view but those of you who are attributing malevolent reasons and/or saying Perry is roping you into his sexual fantasy are you sure you don't just have a problem with people who find jeans and leggings boring? Any departure from that must be analysed and criticised in a negative way.

I know this will be denied but that is my impression.

@oldcrone

And it's this bit And I can't imagine men's underpants giving the same thrill as lingerie seems to for some men that says it all. Its a mens sexual fetish.
Women can wear trousers and flat shoes and a tie and not be called a man or dressing like a man. Men who cross dress seem to go for the most ridiculous women's outfits, over enthusiastic makeup and then a frilly pant. Actually a true crossdresser shpuld actually dress as you just described! Because you are a woman and are not a crossdresser yet wear men style clothes. I wear leggings or jeans...Why are no male cross dressers wearing "normal" boring, every day women's or men's clothes?!

Sorry, where's, wears and weres all over the place. Lol

But is that because it's not quite so glaringly obvious it is sexual? Like there's a line of what sexual fetish is acceptable to walk into work/down the street or not

There are generally very clear lines of what is acceptable to walk into work/down the street. Level of body coverage being the obvious one.

I don't know what the motives of the person at the opera were. I don't assume to know what was in his head and he didn't make me in the least bit uncomfortable. It is not for me to say he should not be allowed to dress like that.

I know nothing about Grayson Perry but the underlying force behind a man finding wearing a dress to be erotic is misogyny.

Exactly.

I think Grayson Perry knows that very well, and talks about it. But still, the sexual compulsion is huge.

Whatever GP's motivations for his dressing up as "Claire", he's never struck me as a man who hates or fears women. I know people who've worked with him, nothing bad to say. Too bad his honesty and self-knowledge is so rare amongst middle-aged men who like a frock and a bit of lippy.

In answer to your questions: No, I don't know, I think it is. ok good for you.

No, i didnt say you were

OK, I misunderstood. I was replying to this:
of course women wear trousers but they are generally "women's trousers". It would be noticeable if we all started dressing like our husbands

I wear men's jeans (some of the time) and I dress like my husband (jeans and t-shirts). I don't think of myself as a cross dresser, just someone who likes practical and comfortable clothes.

I'm wondering how a woman can be a crossdresser. Are there any famous female cross dressers?

I don't think it works the same way for women, although women wearing a suit and tie would be the equivalent. And I can't imagine men's underpants giving the same thrill as lingerie seems to for some men.

If dresses were gender neutral attire then the man with this fetish would not wear them because the point of the fetish is to appear as a woman and thus be "humiliated". It is the humiliation that turns them on. Not the clothes. The root of finding "appearing like a woman" to be a humiliating thing is misogyny.

I know nothing about Grayson Perry but the underlying force behind a man finding wearing a dress to be erotic is misogyny.

If being a woman wasn't perceived as a humiliation it wouldn't work. If dresses wear not classed as women's attire it wouldn't work.

I wear clothes for the sole purpose of being warm and comfortable these days. I really, truly give no shits what other people think as long as they are clean and go on my body comfortably... I'm not trying to put anything out there. It's very freeing. And mostly it's "men's" jumpers from Tesco because they are larger and warmer than "women's".

Mostly I'm placemarking as the discussion is interesting.

Well I bought all my DD’s everyday clothes in the boys sections when she was a toddler and young child, her teen friends mention it when they see photos. Was she a cross dresser? Am I a fetishist? Is it about the intentions of the wearer?
I still can’t get worked up about a man who gets off on dressing like a doll.

I support gender non-conformity. I don't think you have to be trans or a fetishist to be a non-conformist. I am against gender conformity and the way we are supposed to fit ourselves into boxes. Many women cross dress by wearing clothes from the men's section and it shouldn't be a big deal. We should do away with the sections altogether and let clothes be clothes (as the campaign goes).

Same here.

I and I think Weetabix and Jessica don't particularly care whether it is a fetish. I'm not interested in analysing other people's motives for dressing the way they do.

Of course.
I do care about a sexual fetish that relies on the humiliation of women.

Male sexual dominance is prevalent. Catcalling, sexual harassment, street harassment, the objectification of women and girls, and, of course, treating women like rag dolls in pornography.

Deciding that a fetish which relies on all that and is supported by that isn't a problem, is of course - your prerogative.