Is "gender identity" the new "soul"? Seeking a theologian to explain

this is all very interesting and like a PP I will return to read some of the links when I'm feeling more up to it...
but I wanted to respond to the conclusion of the OP, that those who don't believe in souls are sceptical. This is the problem, I think, that in general people aren't sceptical. Society is generally secular in the sense that most people don't adhere to a conventional religion (we'll leave aside the priveleged role of Christianity in the UK), BUT many many - maybe most- people believe in ghosts, the paranormal, angels, horoscopes and an afterlife. For example, just listen/read what is said after someone dies- they've gone to e better place/they're at rest/they'll be watching over us etc etc
So I think that our society is only superficially sceptical and rational, hence why an idea like 'born in the wrong body" makes intuitive sense to many people and why the notion of gender identity gains traction.
Not sure what we can do about it though.

If there is a transgod, xe is a very careless deity as xe keeps making mistakes by giving out the wrong bodies

This is why I love Mumsnet!

I believe in souls, but my belief is that the universe energy is absolute. So you would only experience a particular sex dependent on the physical body the soul resides in. The soul does not have a sex or gender, it just is.

As someone who believes in souls I can say that from what I have learned from many sources is that souls are genderless and the reason for feeling 'born into the wrong body' is due to having many previous incarnations as one sex that makes it feel awkward when you live a life as the opposite sex.

Perhaps. My trans partner speaks about it in much the same way, although he borders on atheistic religiously.

I am deeply religious but have noted that atheist liberals, for all their insistence that they are super logical and rational, have replaced god with some modernistic beliefs that are irrational and seem to parallel and replace religion's old place in society. Therapists instead of religious counseling. gender feels in place of a soul, and so on.

If there is a transgod, xe is a very careless deity as xe keeps making mistakes by giving out the wrong bodies

@CaptainMarvelBunting

Am I allowed to use heart emoticons on MN?

❤️

I'm very boring about Genderism being quasi-religious. It's a metaphysical belief, so I think it fits very neatly into the category of New Age neo-religion, with a spectrum of adherents - from the entrenched fundamentalists with the #NoDebate and the heresy hunting, to the wannabes on the peripheries who haven't really dug into the meat of the ideas but have accepted a generalized idea of Gender Identity made up of a mishmash of cod science and all the stereotypes we are constantly bombarded with from media, marketing et al.

Yes, it's hard, but not impossible to break through to cultic fundamentalists. But I press this point not to 'deconvert', but because it's an effective lever to prevent legal over reach on the part of Genderist AWAs. If Genderism can be shown for the metaphysical belief that it so clearly is, then it's adherents would have a measure of protection the same as any other believer, but, most importantly, they would have no basis upon which to impose their belief system on the rest of a secular society.

I believe so profoundly in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist that I am sometimes moved to tears by the experience of Adoration. I am entirely free to do so. I am not at liberty to insist that it becomes mandatory for everyone to make the sign of the cross when passing a church out of reference for the presence of God within, and you're all free to think, and maybe even tell me I'm a completely barking Catholic whacko. This is as it should be.

Genderists should be free to believe and make the case for their beliefs. They should not be exempt from challenge, and others most certainly should not be compelled to accept or act on those beliefs.

No worries, MsTiggywinkle, it is rather long and wordy! :)

This is an interesting article from a theologian about the place of the soul in Christianity, and the departure from the dualist position which formed over centuries:

Thank you @madhair (!) that link was very useful for me

Thanks oldcrone you explain it well and better than me. And many other pp!

Yes it's demanding others believe too.

What you can not get away from is that talking about gendered souls IS an article of faith. It is a belief nothing more. That doesn't mean it is necessarily religious.

I concur.

The other thing to note is that "debate" doesn't deprogramme cultists. Referring to gender identity theory as a neo-religion or a cult won't change the minds of the faithful.

If that's how you see what's happening - it's how I see a lot of what's happening - and you want to describe it thusly, go ahead. But the cultists won't listen. Perhaps one day, when they've finally listened to the inner voice that's been telling them this is a pile of horse shit all along, they'll remember what you said. But not until then.

The disinterested or on the fence will be able to hear you, however, so it's certainly worth putting it in these terms to them.

Really appreciate the vicar’s post, thank you.

This is a tricky one in so many ways, especially as many have already said you choose to talk about “soul” in a Christian context as the theology varies tremendously.

For example as Catholics we don’t separate the soul from the body, this is considered heresy. We are embodied. The idea that that matter is dirty and bad and the soul has to rise above the earthiness of life is completely anti-Catholic which is very sacramental. That’s why the way we express our faith has lots of “smells and bells”, the body is good and we celebrate the beauty of “stuff” or matter, the natural world and the incredible intricacy of the universe.

In terms of Catholic theology then the soul cannot be separated from the body and the idea that you are in the “wrong” body makes no theological sense. Sorry, I can’t get much closer than that! As you say you need a true theologian.

This is an interesting article from a theologian about the place of the soul in Christianity, and the departure from the dualist position which formed over centuries:
ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/mind-spirit-soul-and-body/

Some food for thought:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIENTOLOGY_IN_GERMANY
As of 2017, German courts have so far not resolved whether to accord Scientology the legal status of a religious or worldview community, and different courts have reached contradictory conclusions.[3] The German domestic intelligence service is constantly monitoring the organization and mention them in their annual review about anticonstitutional activities. The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion; rather, it views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in the German constitution. This stance has been criticized, most notably by the U.S. government.

Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in some major political parties, and businesses and other employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a prospective business partner's or employee's association with the organization.

Also worth pointing out the major difference between cults and religions is the refusal to allow free theological discussion.

The problem with comparing it to religious (particularly Judeo/Christian notions of the soul is that these beliefs have so often been misconstrued and adapted (often for monetary gain) throughout history. So in first century Christianity, there wouldn't have been the idea of the soul as some kind of disembodied essense, because the 'soul' or 'spirit' would have been seen simply as one with the body, and not seperated from it. The separation of body and soul was more of a Platonic framework and then came more into play with sects like gnosticism a bit later on, where the body was seen as corrupted and evil, and the soul was the pure essence of a person and thus would be the part to go on to some kind of floaty afterlife seperated from that 'bad' physical body.

In Christianity, the narrative of the afterlife is one of bodily resurrection, which was initiated by Jesus' own bodily resurrection. He wasn't a disembodied soul or ghost, but a person with a physical body, scars and all. And the gospel story is one of restoration of body and soul and spirit together: they are not separate entities which can somehow become mixed up or made a mistake with. In first century Judaism and fledgling Christianity this concept would simply be anathema.

While the Bible speaks of the soul, spirit etc, it frames it as the part of us that responds to God, the 'psyche' that is the expression of our deepest beings, but not an essence which can be removed in some way. The emphasis is on us as whole beings.

Genderism is a cult which replays more of the Platonic/Cartesian narrative of soul as a separate entity. I completely agree with the poster who says that it has been elevated beyond a religious belief to a human right which everyone must validate, and also with @mostlydrinkstea that it is reminiscent of fundamentalists in a religion telling others they are wrong, and this is what they must believe/follow.

So it is slightly more complicated than the comparison with religion as elevating a soul as essence rather than a soul as part of the whole. In my opinion as a Christian, the gender identity dogma is one that is utterly opposed to the gospel I hold to which is one of affirming the whole person in their created sexed body, and drawing that person to transformation within their body rather than out of it. While this is my position as a theologian and feminist, I also recognise the crippling gender dysphoria that some people have, and understand it as part of the messy and broken world we live in.

The belief that humans have a soul that is male or female and sometimes God makes a mistake and puts a female soul in a male body is very anti-Christian in two ways, first that God makes mistakes and second that souls are gendered.

Yet we find Christian families in America whole heartedly embracing trans ideology, what you find behind that usually comes down to old fashioned conservative homophobia (they'd rather have a transgirl attracted to boys for a child than a boy attracted to boys) and fear of the non-conforming, rather than religious beliefs.

Worth pointing out religious cults are NOT accepted as religions.

A cult can be religious or political.

A cult requires blind faith.

I think this business of 'being born in the wrong body' is an attempt to almost legitimise feels by giving it the status of religion.

That's what cults do. They argue in whatever way they can that they are legitimate.

What you can not get away from is that talking about gendered souls IS an article of faith. It is a belief nothing more. That doesn't mean it is necessarily religious.

I wouldn't hint you think their ideology is a religion as it could cement it further

Personally I can't understand gender ideology without first and foremost processing it as a type of religious belief.

There are some differences, gender ideology does not have a deity, there is no obvious type of structural heirearchy with various roles for people eg priest or nun or whatever, and they don't have obvious rituals.

So it's different.

However, everything about gender ideology is based on evidence-lacking false logic, is entirely dependent intrapersonal commentary, completely detatched from material reality and requires a mindset almost identical to people who believe God created the earth in 7 days and Angels will take us to heaven after we die.

You also see similarities between gender ideology rhetoric and other cults in how they recruit and retain people within the belief system.

Such an interesting thread.

Fascinating post, mostlydrinkstea .

Someone said upthread that you don't ID as homo- or heterosexual, you just are. I remember hearing a comedian once saying they ID'd as bi, even though they'd never had a same-sex relationship. I'm sure if she had had such a relationship she would have just said "I am". So "I identify as" seems to mean 'I'm not, but I wish I were/think I should be/think of myself as.'

I've heard people say "I don't identify as a grey-haired person." Well, do you have grey hairs, or not? I really dislike the imprecision of this language and ended up in an interesting discussion with DD when she said she identified as Ravenclaw, despite being sorted into Griffindor.

Back to the OP, I think you already have the words you're looking for. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it makes sense that gender identity is a belief. Funnily enough, I do have a belief in souls. But I recognose that it is a personal belief. I recognise it is not a fact (i.e. no evidence). I know that my beliefs have changed over time and with experience. I know that some people share the same belief and some don't and that's good. I am happy to test and challenge my beliefs. And, crucially, I do not insist that other people believe the things I believe, and I do not ask laws to be made on the basis of my belief.

I work in an area (nothing to do with faith or religion) where I get to investigate the ideas and beliefs people hold about themselves. It is fascinating. Our ideas have the most profund impact on how we think and act. We all construct these systems of ideas/beliefs about ourselves, about the world, and about how we interact with the world. It could be as simple as someone telling themself 'I'm not a singer" despite having a lovely voice, or someone believing they can't get out of a chair without making that grunting noise! But acting according to our own beliefs seems pretty universal in my experience, which is of course why it is so important to interrogate those beliefs.

I am sure the concept of 'gender identity' is useful to many people, hence being widely embraced. But while it remains in the realm the realm of belief rather than the realm of physical reality, it's not a basis on which to make profound changes to our legal system.

Mostly - great post and explains well what I am encountering in my own life. I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs, however strange or different from mine, but this one leads to surgery and taking artificial hormones, likely sterilisation, without good evidence of good outcomes, and is being supported by the NHS and the rest of the public sector as something to be welcomed and encouraged...

The problem with stating that believing that you are transgender is the same as religious belief is that there are many ways of being religious and on a secular board like this transgender as religious belief is likely to be framed as transgender as fundamentalism. My way is the only way, I am right and you are wrong. Black and white thinking.

I'm not in that stream of Christianity. I'm a middle aged priest who has seen a lot and been told a lot and deals with uncertainty, doubt and ambiguity as people are wonderfully complex and lead less than perfect show home lives. My faith helps me frame this and work within the mess of life.

What struck me as I was thinking about the theology of death and the nature of the soul was that the black and white thinking and the tribalism that goes with it, plus the dominance of the patriarchy is what makes some forms of religion unhealthy for women. The toxic debates around gender identity do sound a lot like fundamentalist Christians telling mainstream Christians we are wrong, very wrong.

It feels so similar that maybe the current debate on transgender reflects a way that people think. This is not my area so I'm putting it forward tentatively. What we do see in religious faith are stages that people typically go through. First they believe everything their parents tell them but then they start to form their own opinions but it can be very tribal and people outside of the box are othered and wrong. It shows as those very adolescent views that only my church is the right one, or only my form of martial art, or my form of music or my understanding of gender. Most people mature to see the value in other points of view but some people don't grow out of this stage. I see it often enough in faith circles.

This is a simplified chart but you could put many strongly held beliefs in this framework and it would give you passionate black and white thinkers who are young and mature people who have seen a lot and reflected on it and come to a different view.

www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

One thing I've found in religious life is that people act like people and that the same odd behaviour you find in churches you find in political parties or local interest groups. Psychology helps a lot.

In the transgender debate there are questions of identity, a culture that is about getting us to find our identity in what we buy plus a loss of the meta narrative of religion, politics and national groupings that are causing all sorts of uncertainty.

Maybe that helps. If not ignore it. I have to do a service now. Enjoy your Sunday.