Have you ever been harassed on public transport in London because of your gender identity?

This is exactly the sort of crap LM and the like will pick up on and call transphobic.

And? They declare everything transphobic.

The issue I have with using 'gender identity' as a marker..is that the next claim would be that SEE its not people who are female being harassed for bring female, its because they have a female gender identity.

Which in turn, implies women could easily avoid harassment by changing their 'presentation'. Which is utterly false.

And then the 'transwomen are harassed just as much as women, usually even moreso!' appears.

It just a kind of endless cycle.

The feminist conversation here would have been:

What constitutes as gender non conforming?

Does a middle aged woman not giving a shit count?

Does a woman "manspreading" or playing patriarchy chicken count?

Does a woman in trousers count?

Does it have to be a man in a dress?

^Turtle stop! That's too much "whataboutery" for this time of the day!
Transphobic attacks are real and abhorrent. But they don't mean we have to ignore, forget or minimise the sexual harrassment women experienced daily. They are entirely different. One is triggered mismatch in presentation and expectation. The other is triggered by a woman merely existing.
BOTH are down to male violence. So stop shouting at women for wanting to be hear^

Too much whataboutery?

This thread is the whatabouttery.

This thread is the man on the bus saying "you know men get raped in prison". Sexual harassment of women because they have breasts and arses is not the same as what was in the survey. Why turn it into something else entirely? I am not shutting down women's voices. I have been posting on FWR about gender critical issues for at least 5 years. But gender critical is not the same as "asshole" and threads like this make it hard to differentiate.

Turtle stop! That's too much "whataboutery" for this time of the day!

Transphobic attacks are real and abhorrent. But they don't mean we have to ignore, forget or minimise the sexual harrassment women experienced daily.

They are entirely different. One is triggered mismatch in presentation and expectation. The other is triggered by a woman merely existing.

BOTH are down to male violence. So stop shouting at women for wanting to be heard!

stillathing - I totally agree. We should be able to recognise that genuine transphobic attacks are a thing without pretending that they're the same thing as the sexual harrassment and sexual assault women get because of our sex.

(BTW, re other posts suggesting one can't be harrassed for gender identity because you can't see inside people's heads, it's not about perceiving "inner trans-ness", it's about some thugs noticing the mismatch between someone's visibly male or female body and their clothing and pitching in to beat the shit out of them for no reason other than that they are evil little thugs looking for an excuse to beat the shit out of people. That is genuine transphobia, and it does happen. It's just that it's aimed at a different demographic, and for different reasons, to sexist attacks on women, and to conflate the two does neither group any favours.)

Homophobic and transphobic harassment are real.

You can accept that, comprehend that and STILL be gender critical and not think saying " men have penises" is a transphobic statement.

Men have penises.

Women have vaginas

Men and women also get abused for not fitting gender norms. Gender is a construct but it doesn't stop you getting your ass kicked by a group of young men on the piss.

I've never been hassled on the London tube.

Also the only way to 'show' your gender identity is to follow certain stereotypes. And even when 'dressed as a man' for book day a while back I was felt up on public transport as I was obviously female.

Yes, sexual assault of women is rife. But if you'd been called a "fucking dyke" for being dressed that wya it would have been about being gender non conforming.

Don't pretend you don't understand this.

This is exactly the sort of crap LM and the like will pick up on and call transphobic.

I love the smell of mansplaining in the morning.

I really hope that wasn't directed at me as the three children I pushed out of my vagina would disagree with your olfactory assessment.

If someone gropes me when I'm wearing jeans, DMs and my (male) partner's hoodie is that materially different to groping me when I'm wearing jeans, dms, and a 'ladies' t-shirt?

Where does the questionnaire mention groping?

You're discussing sexual harassment.

It's not the same as being called faggot or tranny, or dyke because of your dress.

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

Also the only way to 'show' your gender identity is to follow certain stereotypes. And even when 'dressed as a man' for book day a while back I was felt up on public transport as I was obviously female.

People cannot see my 'gender identity', as they can't see anyone elses as its apparently some internal essence, so this question is daft?

I have been harassed many many times because of my sex though.

We all know what "gender non conforming means" this isn't about sexual harassment of women on the tube.

Do we?

If someone gropes me when I'm wearing jeans, DMs and my (male) partner's hoodie is that materially different to groping me when I'm wearing jeans, dms, and a 'ladies' t-shirt?

Of course not.

So yes, they need to define gender id - what do they mean, and once they've defined that, how do people know that it's their gender identity that they were targeted for, rather than their sex, their presumed sexuality, or their gender presentation?

I love the smell of mansplaining in the morning.

I've been harassed because of my sex. I don't have a gender identity.

Conducting research into gender non conformity on public transport in London

"gender ID" can be read as millennial speak, but gay people have been harassed for their gender performance since always.

While I agree this isn't the most well thought out questionnaire, I do find this whole thread quite distasteful.

We all know what "gender non conforming means" this isn't about sexual harassment of women on the tube.

You know how we tell TRA and MRAs that if they have a problem with something they should fix it and not expect women to do it for them?

That's clearly what this person is doing here.

Being groped because you are a woman is different to being beaten up because you're a man in lipstick, or a butch lesbian who has made no effort to look "hawt" for the men around her. I imagine this will be part of some project where he designs the trains to be safer for people like him, or as part of a poster campaign he designs about harassment. It's not hard to imagine what it could be about, but it never mentions sexual harassment. Some women will suffer sexual harassment AND harassment due to gender non conformity.

My main problem with it is what constitutes gender non-conformity. I don't wear makeup and dresses or make an "effort" the way women are meant to, but that many middle aged women start doing. I suppose I am gender non conforming in that sense and I have had abuse for not being pretty enough. Would that count?

HIghjacking this to talk about women is whatabouttery. It gives the TRAs who follow this board ammunition.

I doubt it - since how would anyone know if I did or did not possess a gender identity, or what it was if I did.

Because of my sex though, sure!

As to this presentation thing, how I 'present' will not make a darn bit of difference. If you shaved DP and my heads and dressed us in dustbin sacks, it would still be completely obvious which one of us was male, and which female.

I've seen people harassed because of their fashion choices - not quite the same thing though

I don't have a gender identity so not sure why I've been sexually assaulted on public transport. Could it possibly have something to do with my sex?

I didn't report what happened, I was ashamed and embarrassed and felt like the police wouldn't help. I still feel ashamed about the assault but also feel ashamed that I didn't report it. It happened on a bus, there would have been cctv. I'm sure the man who assaulted me will have gone on to do the same to other women as well. I just hope that his crimes didn't escalate.

WTF has this to do with graphic design? I pity this kids lecturers.

also like PP i was so surprised to find i experienced much more harassment and crap when pregnant. back to the levels of my late teens. was horrible.

I have never been harassed on public transport because of my gender identity. That is because, much like my eternal soul, it does not exist.

I can absolutely believe that some people suffer genuine transphobic attacks due to being non-passing trans, and this is terrible. (There's a transwoman I see on the bus who clearly does not pass, and is disabled as well, and I dread to think the amount of harrassment they get). Any sort of harrassment for being "visibly different", be it disablist, racist, transphobic, homophobic, is absolutely fucking appalling.

agree wholeheartedly with the above.

However it is extremely dangerous to perpetuate the myth that it is gender presentation that is the reason for sexual harassment. it erases the means by which we talk about the problem of SEXual harassment. and if we can't define it then our chances of solving the problem are diminished. The transwomen in PP story likely was on the receiving end of either homophobic, transphobic, or if they genuinely passed, sexist abuse.

It is extremely offensive to the huge numbers of women around the world who suffer abuse at the hands of men, on transport systems or elsewhere, to peddle the myth that it was because of their gender presentation. gender presentation changes from place to place and across time. sadly sexual abuse of women is woven into our histories and our societies.

women are harassed and attacked because of the body parts specific to them and because attackers know they are unlikely to be able to fight back, because of the difference in size and strength between males and females.

gender comes into it but not in the form of whether a woman chooses to wear a dress or a tracksuit or how short their hair is FFS. female socialisation to be nice and polite, fear of speaking up and making a fuss, reluctance to report because last time you weren't believed or because you've just read in the papers that a judge said it couldn't be rape because the victim had consented to sex on a different occasion/ didn't scream/ wore a thong etc etc etc.

Actually not so bad in London but was often rubbed up against on buses in Rome, I was only in my early twenties then, it happened to my mum too. I was more upset when it happened to my mum when we were together. Lots of verbal abuse though in the UK.

I have been harrassed because of my sex.
I present quite androgynous (short hair, had been at football so was wearing a football shirt and jeans).
Some bloke kept hassling me until I was able to move up the tube train and get some police officers between us.
Not sure that is the kind of response they are looking for though.

Does being asked whether I was a lesbian by random strangers on a bus (who had been agreeing among themselves I didn't look like I care very much about performing femininity) count for group of gender identity (or lack thereof)?