Have you ever been harassed on public transport in London because of your gender identity?

It is always pertinent to remember that the sole purpose of the gender identity language is to allow for autogyneaphilia to become accepted in public as trans. All the stuff flowing from this is a to reinforce this sexuality as something that must not be judged for what it really is.

Absolutely. The Prince Charming (in his head) was more like Rab C Nesbit in reality.

On my day if you turned down a gentleman’s advances chances are you’d get ‘are you a lezza??? Thrown back at you.

well to turn down the offer of lovin' from an inebriated overly aggressive stranger must imply you're batting for the other team. Otherwise you'd have been humping him behind the bins already.

On my day if you turned down a gentleman’s advances chances are you’d get ‘are you a lezza??? Thrown back at you.

It's not the same as being called faggot or tranny, or dyke because of your dress.

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

But many of those names still aren't for 'gender identity' - but for perceived sexuality based on presentation stereotypes.

No, not gender identity but could come under a heading of gender non-conformity (which is originally how it is worded at the top of the survey).

It's the gender stereotypes the person is reacting to, because the woman may be a lesbian, or may not be. I see it as old fashioned homophobia or transphobia or sexism, but I suppose in art colleges that's now considered "gender identity".

As I said, I am in no way apologising for the stupidity of the survey or its confusion of terms. Just that it does seem to be discussing gender presentation and not sex based harassment.

I was under the impression that according to the genderists, gender identity isn't the same as gender expression so how would the harasser know how one identified and then proceed accordingly - can they read people's minds? Somehow divine their true essence? Or perhaps sniff it out like the monster in Jeepers Creepers?

Quite. However I clearly don't understand feminist analysis...and the implication of 'transphobia' is there too. How shocking!

If you're a lesbian who is assaulted sexually while also being called names like that.. I'd say you were attacked for both reasons.

But many of those names still aren't for 'gender identity' - but for perceived sexuality based on presentation stereotypes.

If someone calls me a 'bloody woman' then that's potentially abuse of me based on my gender identity, or my sex - and crucially, the person saying it can't know that - only I know my gender identity (or lack thereof) - which is why this survey is nonsense unless the terms are defined.

There are many other differences in turns of phrase, perspectives etc that can influence how a conversation flows. I as asking so I could ignore them and concentrate on what you were saying rathe than how you were saying it...

If you don't want people to think you're struggling with comprehension stop saying things that imply you struggle with comprehension.

But because I'm nice, I'll make it easy for you. Take everything I just said... then replace Asshole with Arsehole.

Now you should be able to understand me properly and help the "discussion flow" Oh and to confuse you further Canadians also say asshole. As do many non English speakers who've learned English as a second language. Maybe you can start a thread asking where people are from so as to better understand their cultural baggage. Safe to assume that a lot of MNers are American/ Canadian though.

Can anyone show me what ‘doing female properly’ looks like though?

In my house it looks a bit like responding to one of Dh's farts with one that can shake the room sufficiently to scare the cat.

I may be doing it wrong though. I don't know.

I have most definitely been harassed for my sex but I have also been harassed due to not performing feminity properly. Is that because I was being gender non conforming or because as a woman that they didn't want to fuck I was pointless? I don't think the same guys who would do that to me are necessarily the same ones who would harrass a man they perceived to be gay though. That's homophobia and maybe to do with their own sexuality? I never thought properly if the two were actually the same things.

I answered the survey and said "No, but I have been harassed numerous times due to my sex"
V satisfying

God, aggressive and I write like a man. I must have male soul. No, you're just an aggressive poster. No gender or sex required for Keyboard Warriors!

So, if I were British we'd have the same perspective based on our social upbringing? Oh stop it! I explained quite clearly what I meant. I wasn't talking about homogeneity, I was talking about cultural mores, socialisation!

I didn't mention class at all! I merely enquired to see if your use of asshole was indicative of your being American. Which it turns out was true. There are many other differences in turns of phrase, perspectives etc that can influence how a conversation flows. I as asking so I could ignore them and concentrate on what you were saying rathe than how you were saying it...

But fuck it, you seem determined to be affronted! I'm off to work!

Can anyone show me what ‘doing female properly’ looks like though?

This is why I thought it would have been interesting if we had discussed what counts as gender non-conformity for the purposes of the survey. Feminist regularly don't conform to gender but it seems to be that when men do it's special.

God, aggressive and I write like a man. I must have male soul.

I was just trying to find out if we had a different perpsctive based on our social upbringing. We do...

So, if I were British we'd have the same perspective based on our social upbringing?

Because social class is much the same through the whole of the UK? No social or economic class system. Same through England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Interesting thought If I were going to guess the person who'd never been to the UK though I'd say it was the person who came out with that nonsense.

No, this thread is making the blindingly obvious point that nobody has been harassed on public transport in London due to their "gender identity" because, even in the opinion of the Gender Faithful, "gender identity" is invisible

I agree it is a poorly worded survey but it does specifically say "gender non-conformity" right at the top. This person hasn't learned the terminology, I agree. But we do all know generally that this person isn't talking about sexual harassment of women, but of the sort of harassment, that is usually linked with homophobia or genuine transphobia. So to post on his/her survey about sexual harassment to do with being female is pointless and goady. Sex and gender aren't the same, it looks like we're the ones who are confused about that,.

I've just filled it in stating I do not have a gender identity, I have an observable biological sex.

Exactly how should a woman write that? Please tell me, it's highly interesting in a thread about non-conformity. I didn't say I thought that, I said "suspect" as I always find it odd, but it does happen!

I suspect that you lost my train of thought because you struggle with reading more than a few lines. That was unecessarily aggressive, no matter what your sex or gender!

I'm sorry how would it help the flow of conversation? Do you normally pick up posters on their country of origin? Sometimes, if it becomes apparent that our frames of reference may be different, due to our cuturla mores, our socialisation.

Do you believe all Americans have the same perspective on things? No, but I do think Americans have a unique social milieu, as do all nations

Please do add xenophobia to transphobia. I wasn't, maybe you are!

Maybe you can make a joke about the disabled and ensure we end up in The Guardian tomorrow. Erm.. nope, never mind!

I've been in the UK my whole adult life and had my children here. let me know how long I can be here before I'm allowed an opinion Who is tryng to stop you having an opinioin? I was just trying to find out if we had a different perpsctive based on our social upbringing. We do...

I've no idea how one could actually be harassed because of gender identity.

I was under the impression that according to the genderists, gender identity isn't the same as gender expression so how would the harasser know how one identified and then proceed accordingly - can they read people's minds? Somehow divine their true essence? Or perhaps sniff it out like the monster in Jeepers Creepers?

If I'm neutrois, born female but presenting in an androgynous way and I'm harassed the harasser wouldn't know about my gender identity unless I told them and the harassment would be for not being "obviously" male or female/not performing femininity correctly rather than my being neutrois.

Women are harassed because of their sex and those who are GNC are harassed because they're seen to be not "playing the game" correctly as set down by the rules of patriarchy - gender identity doesn't come into it as far as I can see.

This thread is the whatabouttery.

No, this thread is making the blindingly obvious point that nobody has been harassed on public transport in London due to their "gender identity" because, even in the opinion of the Gender Faithful, "gender identity" is invisible.

These twits can't even get their own terminology right.

Women are harassed on public transport in London by dint of their sex, however they choose to dress or present. Trans people are harassed on public transport in London because of the way they present - in the Gender Faithful catechism, this is called gender expression.

But they are a graphic design student. I suspect it will be an art piece with much depth 🙄

The study didn’t ask of your gender identity was the same as your sex at birth. It sounds just like art school nonsense to me.

It's a crap survey and probably self selecting and I suppose then the student can write "100% of the four people who responded said they'd suffer harassment". It will look well shiny on the poster.

The study didn’t ask of your gender identity was the same as your sex at birth. It sounds just like art school nonsense to me.

I'm sorry how would it help the flow of conversation? Do you normally pick up posters on their country of origin? Do you believe all Americans have the same perspective on things? Please do add xenophobia to transphobia. Maybe you can make a joke about the disabled and ensure we end up in The Guardian tomorrow.

I've been in the UK my whole adult life and had my children here. let me know how long I can be here before I'm allowed an opinion.

And? They declare everything transphobic

Yes, but a broken clock is right twice day (and would be in this case)

I suspect that is an example of the turn of phrase that makes posters wonder about the sex of the writer...

Oh, I'm sorry Samphire. Exactly how should a woman write that? Please tell me, it's highly interesting in a thread about non-conformity.

Basically I have no idea what your general point is, other than to tell women they aren't beng nice... whch never goes down well here!

I suspect that you lost my train of thought because you struggle with reading more than a few lines. Which is probably why you didn't read, or didn't understand the shared link. I am not telling anyone to be nice. I am telling people to not mock someone who is asking for stories of harassment.

If I were a TRA and I wanted to accuse MN of transphobia I would write this thread and If I then wanted to further show that MN doesn't understand feminist analysis and I would write Vixx and Sapmhire's posts.

But gender critical is not the same as "asshole" and threads like this make it hard to differentiate. And you say you aren't shutting down women's voices.

Asshole may I ask, are you American? That might explain a different perspective, knowing could help the flow of conversation!

The feminist conversation here would have been: I suspect that is an example of the turn of phrase that makes posters wonder about the sex of the writer...

What constitutes as gender non conforming? Don't have to wonder about that as gender is a social construct and I don't acknowldge it at all!

Does a middle aged woman not giving a shit count? Any age, any sex can not care about any issue. Posters here do..

Does a woman "manspreading" or playing patriarchy chicken count? Yep. And there are a lot of threads discussing the relative merits of that!

Does a woman in trousers count? I want to say yes, as presumably the trousers don't eradicate years of schooling. But I would refer you to Eddie Izzard when he was sensible, they aren't men's trousers...

Does it have to be a man in a dress? Does what have to? I lost your train of thought...

Basically I have no idea what your general point is, other than to tell women they aren't beng nice... whch never goes down well here!

HIghjacking this to talk about women is whatabouttery. It gives the TRAs who follow this board ammunition.

Also this..well, this is the feminst board. Focusing on women tends to be what we do