Sporting bodies who have begged to keep women's sports SEX segregated...

My bad - it was the IAAF that banned him initially due to the perceived advantage of his blades.

What is so utterly infuriating to me is that the IOC turned themselves inside out ensuring that Oscar Pistorius didn't have any advantage when he wanted to compete against able-bodied male sprinters.

They spent many months examining data about the lack of muscle fatigue that he would benefit from in using his blades and the constant force of return and therefore forward momentum they gave him. They then dictated that he must forever more use the exact specification of blades that they had evaluated in their research. God forbid that men should be disadvantaged in any way.

But women's sports? Meh...get your T down a bit love, that'll do.

"There's a conflation between participating and competing. No one is saying that transwomen should not participate in sports; what we are saying is that they should not competing against women."

this

No 12-stone male rower or 10-stone female rower is discriminated against by being excluded from lightweight rowing races.

No 30 year old is discriminated against by being excluded from U15's competitions.

I'm curious as to whether Lord Moynihan has had anything to say recently on this issue. Sounds like maybe someone the BBC might want to interview?

It's always open to transwomen to do what Jaiyah Saelua did:
www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/29/jaiyah-saelua-transgender-footballer-interview

Continue to play men's football and campaign to make men's sport more inclusive of gender non-conforming individuals.

I don’t think I can write anything coherent on this thread it just makes me

There's a conflation between participating and competing. No one is saying that transwomen should not participate in sports; what we are saying is that they should not competing against women.

No 12-stone male rower or 10-stone female rower is discriminated against by being excluded from lightweight rowing races.

Barry McGuigan was not discriminated against by not being allowed to compete in a heavyweight boxing bout.

Nobody stops anyone from participating in sport.

IT'S SO INSANE.

But excluding biological men ( even with a GRC) from womens sport is a proportionate means to a legitimate end - ensuring fariness for other competitors and reducing the chance of injury in contact sports.

It is.
The counter argument will be that people who are trans should be able to take part in sports. Some people are suggesting that a third category should be created.

It wouldn't of course be a third but two additional actegories eg females who identify as transgender and are taking various medications (which in other competitive sports would be prohibited) and males who identify as transgender who may or not of have someplastic surgery, taken various specific medication.

Its not very logical since other males may have had surgeries or medical treatments which could have reduced their strength, stamina speed (albeit temporarily) so why would one group have opportunities denied to others?

Sport was always single sex and for specific reasons of fairness and safety. People who identify as transgender have not changed sex and should be encouraged to take part in sport and exercise along with everyone else.

We recognise, however, that there may be some concerns about fairness in the women’s and mixed game.

But we don't give a fuck because it's women who have these concerns.

But excluding biological men ( even with a GRC) from womens sport is a proportionate means to a legitimate end - ensuring fariness for other competitors and reducing the chance of injury in contact sports.

Which is covered By the EA.

Yy transwomen would not be prevented from competing in men category surely?

I think some might claim this?

If a male transperson with a GRC so 'legally entitled to be treated as a woman' was prohibited from competing in male sports, wouldn't this only be a matter of challenging the decision? The issue would be an important one for trans rights eg the right to participate in sports.

As its not possible for someone to demand to see a GRC a male person wanting to compete in male sports would surely just assert their sex?

Yy transwomen would not be prevented from competing in men category surely?

I read that velonews article, which says it is impartial, as saying that it might not be fair for women but so what.

It ended by saying that because some women are tall, men should be allowed to compete against women.

But what the fuck is exclusive about requiring people to play and compete in the correct category?

Who are the missing people who really are excluded when you go after including male bodies in female sport?

This thread is infuriating, in that reading this shit makes me angry.

2015 Metro
'Transgender woman on struggle with new identity – and how she was accepted by the FA, but not her daughter'
(extract)

"Delia Johnston, 60, from Milton Keynes, was a divorced father of two when she began transitioning in 2010. After years struggling with her sense of self she made the decision to become a woman – but her transition was not an easy one. Her choice contributed to the breakdown of her marriage and put a strain on her family. Now, five years on, she has finally found her feet as a female. Delia has found confidence, peace, a job fighting for the rights of the transgender community – and a new relationship too. She now works as specialist diversity consultant for Trans In Sport, Northamptonshire Police and England Netball, fighting for the rights of the transgender community." (continues)

Another hot topic that surrounds transgender people in sport is the issue of gender categorisation – something which Delia feels strongly about: At what point is it fair for a man who has transitioned into woman to play for the women’s team, and vice versa? According to their 2003 rules the IOC [International Olympic Committee] says you need to be on two years of medical hormones before you can play on the team of your assigned gender – something Delia believes is the wrong approach. ‘I think those rules are stupid,’ she says. ‘The requirements are extremely demanding and not all individuals can achieve what is required in time. By then, they may have passed their peak in terms of performance.’

Delia argues that physically, you change greatly, quickly, once you start taking female hormones. ‘When I play badminton now, my mind says I can do that shot but my body says, “in your dreams”. ‘I believe sport is so important. It helps you socially physically and mentally,’ she says.

‘Sports UK and Sports England have now rolled out new guidance. They’ve issued a Transsexual Inclusion In Sport document for domestic, national and international competitions. ‘But there’s not enough actual sports governing bodies implementing changes and policy review in light of this. ‘More still needs to be done. I’m not letting them get off lightly!’

On the ‘trans-friendly’ FA
As Delia says, some bodies deserve credit where it’s due. Namely, the English Football Association, or The FA. Delia worked for the organisation despite, she says, having been told they were ‘homophobic’. Undeterred, she went in and examined the structure of the organisation from a transgender perspective, and found The FA to be the most inclusive of all sports organisations she’d come across – and in fact, the most instrumental in getting transsexuals involved in football.

‘A female to male person wants to do what any other male does – which may include playing football,’ she says. ‘The FA has been the most pro-active and reactive in their inclusion of trans people within football. ‘There are, incredibly, many new transsexuals participating in various levels of football this year.’ Delia believes that if we keep this conversation going, even more trans athletes can step out in the field much sooner. ‘Looking back over the last five and a half years, who would have thought that I would achieve so much after going through so much, that I would help so many, and most importantly, that I would have so much fun?’ (continues)

metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/?ito=cbshare

Edward Lord was also involved with the FA's inclusion policies

And lo and behold, the document ends with further info being available from GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Stonewall amongst others. I wonder what it was that changed their stance?

And some people are wringing their hands over the lack of empathy towards these "old school transsexuals"!

Thanks for posting this info, everyone should see it. It's a fucking scandal.

great find

This article is very illuminating:

www.velonews.com/2018/10/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon_480285

It quotes the professor of human genetics who helped the IOC draw up their policies. It seems clear from his statements that the IOC were not looking to create a level playing field but were looking for ways to include trans athletes in women's sports and therefore how to measure that a trans athlete had diminished their male advantage in some way.

This is important because RMcK is pushing for the testosterone tests to be removed. The main argument is that the IOC identifies participation in sport as a human right and should prioritise this over any concept of a level playing field. This is, in fact, what the IOC and other sporting bodies have already done. This wasn't based on any scientific view that trans athletes have no advantage over women, it's based on prioritising inclusion of trans athletes over women having a level playing field.

It's ironic that the phrase "level playing field" as a by-word for fairness in all fields comes from sports and the obvious advantages / disadvantages in playing sports on a non-level playing field and yet sporting bodies have chosen to abandon the principles of the level playing field in favour of "inclusivity".

In 2015 I interviewed Dr. Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics at UCLA. Vilain helped write the NCAA’s rule for transgender participation. Under those rules, transgender women must undergo one year of testosterone suppression therapy before being allowed to compete. Vilain referenced studies that showed that a year of testosterone suppression significantly dropped the muscle mass in adult males.

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete. Creating rules around transgender participation, he admitted, was extremely challenging. He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

“It is not about making everybody biologically equal, and I think that is a common misconception when we start talking about transgender athletes,” he said. “People want transgender [females] to be physiologically identical to [born] females, and if they’re not, it’s unfair. That is not possible.”

Dr. Vilain referenced the structure of the pelvis and the mass of certain muscle groups as anatomical differences between the male and female body that will always be somewhat different. But achieving total equality is not the point, Dr. Vilain said. The purpose of the NCAA’s rules is to, in a sense, shift the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male. The goal is to create a pathway to include the transgender athlete, not create total equality.

“Can you turn a man’s body into a woman’s body? The short answer is ‘no,” Vilain said. “I think we need to move past that idea completely.”

That's really interesting. For some reason I'd always assumed this was out of the blue and sports organisation had always gone along with the TWAW fiction.

I wonder why so many of them have changed their minds...

Pont taken, Lucretia

UK law, and the possibility of self-ID, is going to have an impact on mass-participation grass roots sport, both on the field and in the changing rooms.

For the likes of Laura Muir, it will be the attitude of the international governing bodies; the IAAF, IOC and WADA, that count, and all of these organisations have been severely lacking in integrity and common sense in recent years.

I was watching the European championships over the weekend, and thought how unfair it is on women athletes who train and work hard for years then find all their hard work is for nothing because some transgender athlete (who was probably not particularly wonderful in their original gender) swans in and scoops up the glory.

I think someone needs to stand up and say no, just because someone wants to compete in a sport does not mean they should have the right to trample over someone else's desire to compete fairly on a level playing field, or track .

Why should an athlete like Laura Muir who has spent years honing her natural skills (as well as studying vetinary science -go Laura!) face the possibility of a transgender athlete taking away her position on the top table because they have more testosterone, a larger heart, greater lung capacity , more blood and a longer stride because despite the fact that they identify as a woman they still have a man's physiology?

It's fairly simple, we can't all have what we want in life, and m to f transgender athletes should be told. " Sorry, you can't compete in women's events because it isn't fair. " Some life changes mean you have to make sacrifices, a surgeon who becomes blind, or partially sighted, or develops Parkinson's can no longer be a surgeon for example.

The law remains in force: You can discriminate where it is justified between men and women or boys and girls.

But legal gender recognition drives a bus through that.

Not so. It's a misconception that legal gender recognition means that you have to treat trans people with a GRC as if they are of their reassigned sex. In cases like sport where it's lawful to discriminate on grounds of sex, it's also lawful to discriminate on grounds of gender reassignment.

The important thing to recognise is that a person who has fully completed their transition still has the legal characteristic of gender reassignment, and can therefore be lawfully discriminated against in situations where it's not unlawful to discriminate on those grounds.

They have managed to spread an awful lot of confusion about this, though. But the decision by some sporting bodies not to discriminate is absolutely not forced upon them by UK law, even in the case of GRC-carrying transwomen.

This is what the Equality Act has to say (section 195):

Sport

(1)A person does not contravene this Act, so far as relating to sex, only by doing anything in relation to the participation of another as a competitor in a gender-affected activity.

(2)A person does not contravene section 29, 33, 34 or 35, so far as relating to gender reassignment, only by doing anything in relation to the participation of a transsexual person as a competitor in a gender-affected activity if it is necessary to do so to secure in relation to the activity—

(a)fair competition, or

(b)the safety of competitors

(3)A gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity.

(4)In considering whether a sport, game or other activity is gender-affected in relation to children, it is appropriate to take account of the age and stage of development of children who are likely to be competitors.