Bloody hell BBC

I am mystified about what's going on.

What are people actually meaning when they say they think or feel like a girl/woman?

If they could explain this it really might help.

but how do you know you are a girl?

if you have a penis then it;s clearly not biology that defines a girl in your belief system, so what does?

8If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?*

yes of course - it would be cruel to indulge a delusion

changing your name, your clothes, your hair, wearing or not wearing makeup, playing physical sports, not playing physical sports and so on are all fine, and children should be supported to make their own decisions around these things

changing sex is not possible and it is cruel to give children the idea that it is

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

You can still accept all of these things, and still know you are a girl. That's how gender dysphoria works.

Old Crone Clearly, I'd talk to them about any illnesses or conditions from which they suffered or asked about. I am not sure what your point is. I wouldn't read the medical dictionary to them.

Why is it that children need to be medicated ASAP but adults should be able to declare themselves the opposite sex with no medication or surgery?

I've covered this elsewhere. I disagree with the Mermaids approach and I think it's deeply troubling.

Being a girl is not an identity, it is a biological fact. People can't change sex. Such a boy should be allowed to express himself as he wishes, and I wish society would become as accepting of men and boys wearing skirts as it now is of women wearing trousers. This has only happened relatively recently. Change is possible, but it won't happen while we insist that a boy expressing himself in a feminine way is actually a girl.

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

it never ceases to amaze me how people seem to be oblivious to how incredibly sexist it is to say that anything other than biology makes someone a girl or a woman.

because if it's not biology that defines the word 'woman', then what is it?

feminine clothes? sexist
long hair? sexist
make up? sexist
being kind? sexist
being compliant? sexist

come on Dadjoke, how would your hypothetical 12 year old boy know he was a girl? let's here you're lovely non-sexist definition

what would you say to a 12-year-old son who insisted he was a girl? Would you at any point accept their view of their identity?

Being a girl is not an identity, it is a biological fact. People can't change sex. Such a boy should be allowed to express himself as he wishes, and I wish society would become as accepting of men and boys wearing skirts as it now is of women wearing trousers. This has only happened relatively recently. Change is possible, but it won't happen while we insist that a boy expressing himself in a feminine way is actually a girl.

How would I select what to cover?

That was in relation to what particular illnesses and conditions you felt it was necessary to talk to your children about. Would you cover similar disorders such as Body integrity identity disorder? Would you cover the sexual fetishism of autogynephilia? What about other completely different mental health conditions? Which ones would you feel the need to talk to your children about?

I also asked you what you think it means to be transgender (you clearly have a view if you think you would discuss this with your children). What's your view on the female penis? Why is it that children need to be medicated ASAP but adults should be able to declare themselves the opposite sex with no medication or surgery?

Old Crone what would you say to a 12-year-old son who insisted he was a girl? Would you at any point accept their view of their identity?

Old Crone I would talk to them whatever age they were in age appropriate language. I have always answered my kids questions about sex, death, sexuality and any other issues, however difficult, as openly and honestly as I can, and said where I might be wrong. I would discuss any issues which affected them. My daughter has a debilitating condition which has resulted in blindness, hearing loss and low life expectancy. She is also bisexual. You can believe I have had difficult conversations.

How would I select what to cover? I'd give them my view, the gender critical view and any other sources of information I consider reputable. I'd have them talk to other people I know and trust. I would respect their views in an age-appropriate fashion.

I am against puberty blockers for many reasons, and taking the step to effectively sterilize someone is not one to be taken lightly. Watch and wait is the right approach. This would require at the very least a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and not just self-id. The fact that Mermaids encourages all transgender children and their parents to give puberty blockers when only a proportion of transgender people are dysphoric is deeply troubling.

WarpedGalaxy
What’s wrong with just telling your son, you are a boy but that doesn’t mean you can’t wear dresses, nail polish and play with dolls DadJoke? All boys and all girls can dress in whatever they like and play with any toys they like?

Yes, of course I'd say that. I even said I'd say that. I'd also tell them that just because they are attracted to someone of the same sex, doesn't mean they are a different gender.

Well, some people did (I think Jarvis Cocker mentioned that he would be often bullied by the miners in Sheffield, which explained why he had conflicting feelings); and that was the kind of bullying that went with catcalling and misogyny. But instead of dealing with the misogyny, some people just 'bought into' that and decided it was easier to carve themselves an 'even specialer' place where they could join in with the bullying of the women

What’s wrong with just telling your son, you are a boy but that doesn’t mean you can’t wear dresses, nail polish and play with dolls DadJoke? All boys and all girls can dress in whatever they like and play with any toys they like?

You know we almost had it right there back in the 70s and 80s, glam rockers, gender benders, New Romantics they all made the mainstream and made it ok for boys and men to wear make up, frills and high heels. No one cared and no one insisted they were girls and women, they just were what they were NOT what they wore.

If they were younger I would talk to them about gender expression, sexuality, gender stereotypes, gender dysphoria and what it means to be transgender.

How young? Why would you talk to them about the distressing mental condition of gender dysphoria which makes people think there is something wrong with their healthy bodies? Unless they, or perhaps another family member or friend were actually suffering from this condition, of course. Which other distressing mental conditions would you discuss with your children? At what age? Would you cover the whole DSM or just part of it? How would you select what to cover?

I'd be interested to know what you think it means to be transgender. As far as I can tell, according to pressure groups like Mermaids it means that if you're a child you need medication ASAP, in order to prepare for irreversible surgery as soon as you're legally an adult. According to late transitioning males it appears to be a belief in the female penis.

What's your view?

old crone

The point I was making is that this is reportage, not “wartime propaganda.”

Yes, I have children. If they were younger I would talk to them about gender expression, sexuality, gender stereotypes, gender dysphoria and what it means to be transgender. That girls can climb trees and boys can wear make up. I would use watch and wait.

If you believed in gender identity, it would make sense that if you know you are a girl, then adopting the common gender expression if girls would reify your gender and make it easier for others to accept you.

I would not accept it at face value and say “yes you are a girl.”

So her former son, Autumn, has become a daughter but may change back into a son again when hormones kick in. And then? Presumably back to a daughter in time to be a beautiful blushing bride and prospective mother? I can see a bit of a problem there, if Autumn marries the man of her dreams - who’s going to conceive and carry the baby?

Or am I just missing something? Again? And not to mention the whole misgendering thing, if that’s going to be an actual crime, then it’s going to be a bugger to stay on the right side of the law if it’s just subject to change at every life stage.

I just can’t keep up any more. Every time, I think I’ve got some tiny part what they’re saying, not agreeing with any of it, but vaguely seeing where they’re coming from iykwim. Then, they just pull the rug and I’m back where I started, flat on my arse with a circle of tiny bluebirds chirping and fluttering around my head.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with your last post there, DadJoke.

What's your opinion of people who tell their children that they can change sex? Do you have children? Is that something you tell them? Do you think a nine-year old boy should be told he can become a mother?

What do you think 'living as a female' means for a nine-year-old child?

And on the transgender child article:

"She adds: "At this moment in time, Autumn is very settled into living as a female and, when she talks about the future and her dreams, it's about being a mother and getting married to the man of her dreams.

"I can't say 100% whether I think Autumn will remain female past puberty; there could be a change when hormones kick in.

"But at this moment in time I have a daughter that I'm proud of and will do everything I can to support and help make her wishes come true.

So the "biased" BBC reported on the transgender sport article:

"Professor John Brewer, professor of applied sport science at St Mary's University, told BBC Radio 5 Live: "Whether we like it or not, genetically the very best males will nearly always beat the very best females in most sports where physicality is critical.

"If you have those physical and physiological characteristics of a male athlete and you are competing in a female environment, then you will inevitably do extremely well and have an advantage."

Brewer says males "tend to have more testosterone" that stimulates muscle growth and their "legacy physiology" (larger heart and lungs) does not necessarily change despite the transition process.

He added: "So, inevitably, when you go into high-performance sport, where the difference between success and failure is quite small, that 'legacy physiology' alongside the muscle growth testosterone creates will give, almost inevitably, transgender athletes/individuals a physiological and indeed a performance advantage."

BBC online news has been as compelling as TakeABreak for a few years now.

What the heck is 'dressed like a guy'?
Guy Fawkes?

Jeans, boots, jumper? That's what I'm wearing now, perhaps I'm actually a man...

She says:
I feel like it's definitely becoming a more acceptable thing, not having to be like "you're a boy, you need to be like this; or you're a girl, you need to be like this".

Did the 20th century completely pass her by? I suppose it did in a way if she's only 25, but she needs to look at what people were doing 40 years ago.

Cindy Sherman does it sooooo much better.

Wtf is it with drag at the mo?

This is such an old hat. Cindy Sherman has been doing something similar for ages. No one cares.

The scary thing is that this woman seriously considered medical transition.

I wonder if the BBC have a quota of these kinds of stories that they have to produce because this really is a non-story.

And in other BBC news.....woman wears clothes:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47244727