Bloody hell BBC

At what pout can you tell someone who "knows" what they are, that they are incorrect in their knowledge? And how can you tell if they are incorrect?

To summarise, by definition, if you know your are a man, your gender identity is a man, even if your chromosomes are XX.

No by definition (see medical textbook, dictionary etc) Man = adult human male.

Words matter.
We are not Humpty Dumpty.

So to summarise, if a man says he is a woman, he must not be questioned.

He doesn't believe it or decide it, he KNOWS it.

You can't point at it, but it's there.

He can't or won't explain how he thinks like a woman, but believe him, he really does know it.

And woman are supposed to accept that? No, explanation, no science, just - this man knows he has a lady brain.

Wow.

No, I'd follow the NHS and NICE guidelines for treating his condition, just the same as I would with gender dysphoria

NHS/medical guidance for a range of mental health, emotional and behavioural issues (just as for some medical conditions) has changed significantly over time,, just as the classification for conditions and situations itself has changed.

cf ECT, trepanation, lobotomies, treatment for 'hysteria' etc

It would be naive to think that there aren't current NHS understandings, protocols which might in the future be be viewed conclusively as ineffective or detrimental.

To summarise, by definition, if you know your are a man, your gender identity is a man, even if your chromosomes are XX.

OK. I'll engage then. No one wants to be Anthony Watons, least of all Anthony Watson, probably.

OldCrone
I'll start by saying that there are 3000 or so people on the UK are who are legally women. I disagree with TRAs who say sex is a spectrum (it's clearly a binary with a few exceptions.) I also think sex is a real, physical category. Humans a sexually dimorphic.

So what does it mean when someone has female anatomy, but identifies as a man? It all comes down to gender identity. GC feminists think it's akin to a religious belief. Psychologists and most national and international health organisations and trans gender activists think it's a real thing, like sexuality. You can't point at it, but it's there. People who don't have disorders of proprioception don't even know they have it, and yet proprioception is real.

If your gender matches your sex at birth, you won't feel any conflict between your gender identity and sex, and because of that, you will know you are woman without any conflict. That sure and certain knowledge is your gender identity. Equally, a XX person who is certain they are a man, has a gender identity which conflicts with their sex at birth. Psychologist think that gender identity is established at a very young age - less than four.

Gender identity is not "believing" or "deciding" you are a man, it's knowing. Wanting to express yourself atypically is not the same as knowing your own gender - some people's gender expression does not match their gender. Often, to be accepted, transgender people express themselves in a fashion typical for people of their gender, which is not to say such expression is not sexist.

So, if a person's gender identity does not match the sex identified at birth, they are transgender.

Now, if you think that gender identity is just a belief, then you might be angry at me for saying that you have one. I can't really help that.

How can a boy 'know he is a girl'? What does this mean and how does he know that?

DadJoke These questions are at the heart of what this thread is about. I've told you what I think the answers are. What do you think?

I'll expand on my comment. You're not actually disagreeing with much of the substance DadJoke but you appear to be pulling the thread onto peripheral areas where you can disagree although to what purpose I can't be sure. Odd.

how about #EconPride DadJoke?

would you talk about it there?

I'd like some comp tickets please

you're coming across as weirdly controlling in the style of Anthony Watson DadJoke

It's not just BernardBlacksWineIcelolly having this view. This thread now has a peculiar undertone.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly I am sorry. When I've been asked these questions in unrelated threads and answered them, I've been accused probably correctly of derailing and mansplaining, so I'd rather not go into it here. I am not avoiding the topic - truly happy to discuss it. Same to Old Crone.

You can still accept all of these things, and still know you are a girl. That's how gender dysphoria works.

I'd like you to expand on this, DadJoke. What do you mean by 'still know you are a girl', when talking about a boy? I have always known I am female (girl then woman) because of my body. Nothing else comes into this description, since female, girl, woman are all defined by biology.

How can a boy 'know he is a girl'? What does this mean and how does he know that?

My assertion is that this 'knowledge' is a delusion. Similar to the non-existent voices which some people hear. Similar to the man who declares that he 'knows' he is Napoleon.

The only other explanation is that this is a religious-style belief. Similar to some people who say that they know that God exists.

What's your explanation, and why do you think it is appropriate to treat it as a scientific fact rather than either a delusion or a religious-style belief?

you're coming across as weirdly controlling in the style of Anthony Watson DadJoke

if a conversation meanders do you often insist that the people you're chatting to move to a different room before you will move to a tangentially related topic that has presented itself from comments you made?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly Start a thread about the definition of woman and I'll answer. That's the last time I'll engage with this question on this thread.

^If he had anorexia, but insisted he was fine, would you help starve him?
If he had schizophrenia, would you encourage him to do what the voices said?^

No, I'd follow the NHS and NICE guidelines for treating his condition, just the same as I would with gender dysphoria. And I would only allow them to make irreversible medical choices if they were an adult, even if that conflicted with NHS advice.

Old Crone

My point is why do you think it's so important to talk about one particular condition, gender dysphoria, but not the whole medical dictionary?

Because we were discussing what to say to a child who insisted they were a girl when they were identified as a boy at birth, I thought.

it's not bait DadJoke, it's a genuine enquiry

what defines being female?

it's a very simple question

I can answer it - can you?

Surprised you're saying you prefer the watchful waiting approach but ask whether we would affirm a 12 year old. Watchful waiting does not include affirming a child in their chosen identity. Especially not a 12 year old, as this is precisely the developmental stage where mind and body reconciliation begins that results in more than 80% of children desisting.

Affirming a 12 year old is counterproductive and ultimately harmful because it interferes with that process.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

No, it's not impossible to answer. I am not rising to your bait on this thread.

I know it's a question that's impossible for you to answer by the way

why not ask yourself why your belief system leaves you with questions that are impossible for you to answer?

you are the one who brought up a hypothetical 12 year old who insists he is a girl Dadjoke. I'm just asking for some clarification on what this child is basing his insistence on

if you expect his parents to turn the child's life upside down and potentially set him on a very serious medical pathway, you must surely have a very clear idea of precisely what this child is basing his beliefs on?

If you want a thread on the definition of woman, please start one.

It also seems strange that the BBC has an article about a woman who has taken photographs of women in the ladies loos. While I’m not criticising this, it does seem a bit odd to be promoting this on the BBC news website, when there is such a lot in the media at the moment about men taking photos of women in the toilets, especially in South Korea.

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

If he had anorexia, but insisted he was fine, would you help starve him?
If he had schizophrenia, would you encourage him to do what the voices said?

How did we get to a place, where people think there is such a thing as Thinking 'like a girl' (what on earth does this mean? can they elaborate?) and that thinking 'like a girl' means you are now a girl.

That's how gender dysphoria works.

It's an illness. Believing yourself to be something you are not is a delusion.

I am not sure what your point is.

My point is why do you think it's so important to talk about one particular condition, gender dysphoria, but not the whole medical dictionary?

If he acknowledged all that was true, but insisted he knew he was a girl, would you accept his identity or not? Would you say "you are not a girl" and refuse to refer to him as such?

Yes, because he's not a girl. It doesn't help him to go along with any delusion he has that he is. He is not and can never be a girl because people can't change sex.

If he insisted he was a dog, would you take him to a vet when he got ill, feed him from a bowl on the floor and take him for walks on a lead? And go along with his 'identity' that he is really a dog? And tell him he can take medication and have surgery to make him into a dog, and that when he grows up he can give birth to puppies?

Everyone should be encouraged to live their lives in the way that they feel most comfortable (as long as it doesn't harm others). We should not be going along with the delusions of confused children. This really doesn't help them at all. I'll say it once more: people can't change sex. Pretending that they can is not helpful to anyone. Least of all to the children themselves.

Telling a child that they can change sex, or that they 'really are' the opposite sex is child abuse. It should be stopped, not encouraged.