Bloody hell BBC

OldCrone

I'm not angry with you. But it is just a belief. I'm not angry with you any more than I would be with a Christian who insists I have a soul. They have a right to believe that. I have a right to believe otherwise.

The thing is, it's not like a religion in that it has wide but not universal scientific, medical and legal status. You are woman, and you know you are a woman, so your gender identity is woman. That's not a religious statement, it's just how the definition of gender identity works. You can say it's not a useful term, but it's not like a religious belief.

Isn't it more accurate to describe 'sex dysphoria'? Some males want / feel they need to be female and visa versa.

Use of gender/gender identity obfuscates whats happening and also muddles the nature of treatments etc.

Wasn't there a transwoman or transman on here a while ago who said that what they suffered from was better described as sex dysphoria, because they thought their body didn't match how they felt it should be?

That makes more sense, and it indicates clearly the correlation with such disorders as body integrity identity disorder.

BickerinBrattle

You may think transwomen are of the male sex, but transactivusts now insist they are if the female sex: hence the notion of “the female penis.” So I’m afraid your definitions are transphobic, Dadjoke.

Yes, I have been accused of being a terf.

Given this new turn in the Möbius strip that is gender identity, a turn that is not predicated on logic or science but is a counter aimed at, above all, male colonization of all female spaces, how can anyone deny that this is, at base, a Male Rights movement?

I disagree that gender identity is not based on science, in fact I've pointed at rather a lot of it. I think sex-based protections are vital and I support the ERA.

OldCrone
This is incorrect. I've seen this used by TRAs before, but it's not what the scientific literature says. I'll find you my rebuttal of this 'fact' from one of my earlier posts, but it might take a while to find it, so for now, briefly, children develop an understanding of what sex they are and that this fact is fixed, usually before the age of four. This is not the same as a 'gender identity' in the way TRAs use it, although the literature is often confusing because it tends to use the terms gender and sex interchangeably.

Thank you very much for doing this. I'll take look. I really wish the definitions of gender and sex were better defined both medically and legally, because it's the deliberate conflation of these terms which have led to sex-based rights being eroded. Rachel McKinnon's deliberate avoidance of the question "what are women's sports for?" is a case in point.

Now, if you think that gender identity is just a belief, then you might be angry at me for saying that you have one. I can't really help that.

I'm not angry with you. But it is just a belief. I'm not angry with you any more than I would be with a Christian who insists I have a soul. They have a right to believe that. I have a right to believe otherwise.

So men are those with a male biological sex, plus those women who know they have a gender identity of male/man.

What is the use or point of insisting that these two separate groups has anything in common?

OK, I'm just catching up with this thread again. I'll start with your reply to me, DadJoke.

Psychologist think that gender identity is established at a very young age - less than four.

This is incorrect. I've seen this used by TRAs before, but it's not what the scientific literature says. I'll find you my rebuttal of this 'fact' from one of my earlier posts, but it might take a while to find it, so for now, briefly, children develop an understanding of what sex they are and that this fact is fixed, usually before the age of four. This is not the same as a 'gender identity' in the way TRAs use it, although the literature is often confusing because it tends to use the terms gender and sex interchangeably.

You may think transwomen are of the male sex, but transactivusts now insist they are if the female sex: hence the notion of “the female penis.” So I’m afraid your definitions are transphobic, Dadjoke.

This new convolution in definition and belief is to Coulter women’s questioning why, if gender and sex are not the same, it is somehow more just to segregate based on gender rather than sex, in those places where we segregate (sport, e.g.)

Given this new turn in the Möbius strip that is gender identity, a turn that is not predicated on logic or science but is a counter aimed at, above all, male colonization of all female spaces, how can anyone deny that this is, at base, a Male Rights movement?

Transwomen are not female. We segregate by sex for a reason. That reason is the inherent biological differences between the sexes. Sex-segregated spaces came about in the first place because that biological difference manifests in an overwhelming discrepancy in sex-based violence, where men account for almost all the violence women experience, whilst the reverse is not true at all. Males can and do kill women and girls with their bare hands. We cannot do the reverse to men: we don’t have the grip strength.

I’m so tired of this bullshit debate that handwaves away the stark material reality of male violence against women and girls that I’m now just going to say this: anyone who supports gender-based as opposed to sex-based segregation is colluding in the epidemic of male violence against women and girls.

Is that truly the side of history you want to stand in, men? If so, just admit it. Say: yes, I know males can and do kill women and girls with their bare hands, and for that reason women campaigned for and won sex-segregation in spaces where they’re vulnerable, but I personally think that male need to feel validated when they identify as female is more important than female health and safety.

Just fucking admit it.

R0wantrees I agree with that paper. People should be supported if they wish to detransition, and be made fully aware of the risks of transitioning before they engage in it, just as with all medical procedures. I also think sex is a real and useful category and people of the female sex are oppressed because of their phenotype.

And TRA ideologues should not attack those who research into this field as transphobes.

R0wantrees You suggested that we use the dictionary definition to determine what a man is. I suggest that's a bad idea, because you wouldn't accept it if it changed. The meaning follows the usage. The dictionary supports my definition of gender identity and yet you still don't think it's real. Legally, trans men are men under the GRA, but you wouldn't accept that, either. So I suggest we put the dictionary aside.

If you tell me that you'd accept a trans man as a man if the dictionary definition changed, then I'll happily accept using a dictionary.

Ah cross post. Easily done!

I think trans men are of the male sex. Their gender is woman.

If you're talking about transmen then the sex that they were born with is female - they transition to the gender identity of males, that's the trans part.

I'm not sure if this is a confusion about transmen (born female) and transwomen (born male) or whether having said that sex is important you actually mean sex is what you identify as and not your biologically identifiable sex?

It is bloody confusing, I admit, trying to talk in terms that go against an entire lifetime of standard shared meaning.

Yes, it's entirely possible that NHS and NICE guidelines will change, but nowadays they are research and evidence-based, looking at the best outcomes for the patient. It's best not to let ideology get in the way of the most effective treatment.

Well Dadjoke I do find myself in agreement with you here. The issue is the ideology of transgenderism/Queer theory, and the impact of trans lobbyists on medical practitioners.

See BMJ comment:

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

open access link here:
www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

Knicknackpaddyflak
Have you got confused there? Transmen are born female and identify as male. Their sex is female while their gender identity is transman. Transwomen are born male sexed and have a gender identify as women

Aargh - yes I got confused.

Knicknackpaddyflak

I agree that sex-based rights are being undermined by TRAs. That doesn't stop trans men being men.

If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view? I doubt it. Dictionaries track usage, and tend to lag

Dadjoke Im an English graduate so yes thanks I am aware of dictionaries. My comment specifically was:

No by definition (see medical textbook, dictionary etc) Man = adult human male.

Words matter!

I think trans men are of the male sex. Their gender is woman.

Have you got confused there? Transmen are born female and identify as male. Their sex is female while their gender identity is transman. Transwomen are born male sexed and have a gender identify as women.

R0wantrees

^Isn't it more accurate to describe 'sex dysphoria'? Some males want / feel they need to be female and visa versa.
Use of gender/gender identity obfuscaes whats happening and also muddles the nature of treatments etc.^

Gender identity is a central plank of what being transgender means. I agree that conflating sex and gender is very problematic, and I don't like the way that the sex category is being undermined despite it being clearly protected in the ERA 2010.

If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view?

It'll be a lie. A nice, polite social lie, but a lie all the same. It'll be a bigger reflection on a society that thinks being nice to people with penises matters more than reality and the equal best interests of both sexes.

And still not interested in the science. Women's rights is what we do here. Only interested in how this impacts on women, and ensuring the needs specific to those born in female bodies aren't shoved under the bus in a rush to a political ideology.

Ihaventgottimeforthis

But DadJoke why should gender identity be considered the factor that defines your sex, rather than your actual sex?

Sex defines your sex. Gender identity defines your gender. I think trans men are of the male sex. Their gender is woman. Sex and gender are related, but they are not the same thing.

R0wantrees If the dictionary definition changes to encompass trans women, will you change your view? I doubt it. Dictionaries track usage, and tend to lag. There is good article about the dictionary definition of woman here:
slate.com/human-interest/2017/09/why-a-controversial-definition-of-the-word-woman-doesnt-necessarily-mean-the-dictionary-is-sexist.html

We can certainly talk about dictionary definitions, if you like, but I don't think it helps much. Webster's includes defintions of trans gender and gender identity which match what I've said above.

Yes, it's entirely possible that NHS and NICE guidelines will change, but nowadays they are research and evidence-based, looking at the best outcomes for the patient. It's best not to let ideology get in the way of the most effective treatment. Check the prognosis here:

patient.info/doctor/gender-dysphoria-pro#nav-6

"Outcome of the various treatments used has been difficult to establish but is generally considered to be good and continuing to improve. Generally assessments of outcome from genital surgery show benefit to well-being, cosmetic result and sexual function[20, 21]. Outcome of hormonal treatment has also been shown to improve well-being and quality of life[22]. Few report regret following treatment.

Studies have reported higher mortality rates in transsexual individuals, as well as higher rates of suicide and psychiatric morbidity[23, 24]. These rates are higher irrespective of whether gender-related surgery has taken place."

Helmetbymidnight if a man knows he is a man, he is a man, by that I mean, his gender identity is a man. If we stick with trans men as examples of transgender people, it will be less likely to provoke outrage.

The science of gender identity is quite well established. See the NICE website if you like. So arguing there is not science at all is disingenuous.

www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/group-e/e10/

I get that people may experience dysphoria between their physical reality and their personal gender identity, but why should I have to buy into it too?

Isn't it more accurate to describe 'sex dysphoria'? Some males want / feel they need to be female and visa versa.
Use of gender/gender identity obfuscates whats happening and also muddles the nature of treatments etc.

But DadJoke why should gender identity be considered the factor that defines your sex, rather than your actual sex?
I get that people may experience dysphoria between their physical reality and their personal gender identity, but why should I have to buy into it too?

Of course it's a belief, personality and choices are all based on beliefs about yourself and often vary over a lifetime.

How someone views and names and presents themselves is entirely their affair. I'm interested in women's rights, and the right of the 52% of the human race who are women only because they all were born in the same type of body to dignity, privacy and autonomy.

Women are not expected in any way to put up with men in their spaces or infringing their bodily privacy, it's not a normal or tolerated belief in our society. They are being asked to make exceptions and not only tolerate but actively lie about some men using their spaces based not on objective reality, or those women's subjective experiences, but because of an objective statement on the part of the man that his self definition must be elevated above anyone else's perceptions and best interests.

That isn't ok. Third spaces, great. But people born into female bodies have their own problems based entirely on those bodies and need their spaces and provisions to meet those issues. Their ability to do so is massively reduced by insisting that some men are women if they say so, complete with male bodies.

He knows it like people who know earth is flat, and God made Adam and Eve and Brexit is going to 'make Britain great'.

You just have to suck it up and listen to the man telling you that he knows that some men are women. They know.

*point, not "pout".