Bloody hell BBC

And also, how does that work for non-binary, and things like neutrois?(where the gender identity is that they don't have a gender identity, as far as I can tell)

They're allowed to opt out of "gender", because they are special and unique. We are not.

ScipioAfricanus

No, a circular argument would be "a woman is a woman"

Ereshkigal

I don't care what the politically motivated "definitions" happen to say. As I said, it's simply a matter of political correctness. It's a belief that must be respected by all or people tend to suffer the consequences. As we know. But most people also know you can't change sex. They just can't say it without an awful lot of hassle. So it's generally easier to go along with it, don't you think?

So, your position is that almost every national and international medical and psychological body (where these definitions come from) is just bowing to political correctness? That you think they know gender identity is a religion but they are all to scared to say? It's a defensible position, but I just want to be sure that's what you think.

And what if I lie in answer to the question "am I a woman?" Or change my mind 2 seconds after you've asked the question? How would you know what I am?

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

So that’s a nice circular argument, then.

Dadjoke , I’m still waiting for you to explain the key identifiers of a female gender identity

Don't make any plans for ooh the next 500 years

How do I know if I'm a woman?
What is a woman?

And also, how does that work for non-binary, and things like neutrois?(where the gender identity is that they don't have a gender identity, as far as I can tell)

Thanks.

It's not an "identity", it's our sex. Just like MTF trans people are of the male sex.

Because, DJ, "gender dysphoria" as it is now called, i.e. transgenderism is what the concept of "gender identity" is based on.

I don't care what the politically motivated "definitions" happen to say. As I said, it's simply a matter of political correctness. It's a belief that must be respected by all or people tend to suffer the consequences. As we know. But most people also know you can't change sex. They just can't say it without an awful lot of hassle. So it's generally easier to go along with it, don't you think?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

Gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan

Help me out here

How do I know I’ve got a female gender ID?

Dadjoke , I’m still waiting for you to explain the key identifiers of a female gender identity

Since you’re so sure it’s real, that should be easy?

Ereshkigal

I am not talking about gender dysphoria - not sure why you have jumped to that - but to gender identity.

"Gender identity" is a politically correct acceptable term to describe what a male person who identifies themselves as a woman (or vice versa a female person) feels themself to have. Plus a lot of other more dubious ideological baggage.

The definitions assume all people have a gender identity, not just transgender people.

any evidence that there is a dispute over the term amongst those bodies.

Why would there be a dispute? Gender dysphoria is a recognised psychological medical condition. In the DSM-5.

"Gender identity" is a politically correct acceptable term to describe what a male person who identifies themselves as a woman (or vice versa a female person) feels themself to have. Plus a lot of other more dubious ideological baggage.

CharlieParley thank you for this superbly-argued post. It encapsulates what I think on this subject far better than I could ever have expressed it. Now bookmarked for further use.

If we put aside whether gender identity is real or not for the moment, can we address the point as to whether the scientific and medical establishment agree that it is?

I am more than happy to be disabused of the notion. I am not trying to be difficult, and it could be that I am delusional - I just can't find, after extensive research, any evidence that there is a dispute over the term amongst those bodies.

CharlieParley

A lot of people who are not gender critical and/or feminists also consider gender ideology to be entirely faith-based (the clue once again is in the word - it's an ideology ie a system of ideas and ideals, a collection of beliefs).

Please can you point at any national or international medical or psychological body which shares the view that gender identity is akin to religious belief. Just one would be fine.

Yes, on the one hand, activists believe gender identity to be real. They describe it as an essence, a dis-embodied consciousness (if it wasn't, it couldn't ever end up "in the wrong body"). That's as clear a belief in a metaphysical entity as the concept of the reincarnated soul.

Here you are conflating activists with scientists and psychologists. The definitions, evidence and research I've seen treat gender identity as real in the sense that sexuality is real. Again, if you can point me a single reputable medical of psychological body which treats it in the same way as it would the belief in a soul, please do point me at it.

That's why internationally, watchful waiting remains the best practice approach to treating children who suffer from sex dysphoria.

This, I agree with. When gender identity is finally established is still a matter for study. In much the same way, some people's sexuality can take time to be established.

The fact that some people believe in a gender identity is accepted by medicine and law. This correctly allows those who follow that belief to have freedom of their beliefs where that does not impinge upon the rights of others

I know you think it's a religious belief, and other posted have conflated the scientific study of religion with religion itself. Science has not position on the truth status of religions. This is not like that at all. It's not saying "some people believe they have a gender identity," it's defining what gender identity is. You disagree that it is a useful concept, and you'd prefer it wasn't applied to you, but that does not make it a religious belief.

I have pointed at definitions from the NHS. Here are a bunch more from the vast majority of major national and international medical and scientific bodies. These are not religious definitions. The NHS for example does not have a definition of a soul, nor do they dispute that gender identity is real and applicable to everyone. You can argue that it is like a religion, but medical and psychology organisations don't agree in any instance I've seen so far.

I'll start with Mosby's medical dictionary:
"the inner sense of maleness or femaleness. Differentiation of gender identity begins in infancy, continues throughout childhood, and is reinforced during adolescence. Also called core gender identity."

McGraw Hill medical dictionary: "Core gender identity 'The inner conviction that one is male, female, ambivalent, or neutral.'GI is a major personality trait, that develops in the first 2 yrs of life, and is 'fixed' by the 3rd yr."

Collin's medical dictionary " The inherent sense that one belongs to a particular sex. In almost all cases that sex corresponds to the anatomical sex, but for a small minority, the gender identity is for the opposite anatomical sex."

The American Association of Psychiatry defines it as "(the psychological sense of being male or female)" alongside sexuality and social gender role.

The APS defines it as "to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

Nowhere that I read leads me to believe any of these bodies think this is anything other than a real thing, like sexuality. Do you know of any scientific bodies which differ from the view?

Awesome, CharlieParley, beautifully argued. Nothing to add, except that this forum keeps me sane.

OldCrone That is a hell of a thread. This will take some time.

I do find the 'jaxing off' posters quite helpful in inspiring excellent posts like OldCrone 's and CharlieParley 's

nothing is wasted here

Gender identity is so well defined and established in medical literature, and accepted around the world by the national and international bodies which represent the medical and psychological professions

No, you have misunderstood.

The fact that some people believe in a gender identity is accepted by medicine and law. This correctly allows those who follow that belief to have freedom of their beliefs where that does not impinge upon the rights of others.

The idea that gender identity is real is not accepted by medicine and law any more than the idea that souls are real are accepted by those establishments. Christians are still able to freely practice their beliefs though.

That's literally what a number of the posts above have been laboriously trying to explain to you DadJoke.

While I am not saying you are wrong, but it seems a little like climate change denial.

Please don't do this, its a pattern many women recognise.

Gender identity is so well defined and established in medical literature, and accepted around the world by the national and international bodies which represent the medical and psychological professions, that if it is unscientific and untrue then there has to be a Great Global Conspiracy for it to be recognized as scientific and true. I know the trans lobby has become more vocal and powerful over the years, but this seems a little unlikely. While I am not saying you are wrong, but it seems a little like climate change denial.

Its not well-defined.
It may be oft referenced in relatively recent years.
The two are different things.

Thank you so much for engaging with me. I have a lot to read and take in here. In particular CharlieParley's post is amazing, and thank you OldCrone for taking the time to dig out that link.

One point to ponder while I do.

Gender identity is so well defined and established in medical literature, and accepted around the world by the national and international bodies which represent the medical and psychological professions, that if it is unscientific and untrue then there has to be a Great Global Conspiracy for it to be recognized as scientific and true. I know the trans lobby has become more vocal and powerful over the years, but this seems a little unlikely. While I am not saying you are wrong, but it seems a little like climate change denial.

So, it could be my premise is wrong (it's accepted by the medical establishment), or it could be that they they are all wrong (gender identity is like a religion despite their studies and practice), or it could be that you are wrong, or it could be a global conspiracy (these bodies are too frightened to take on the all-powerful trans lobby.)

Is there an option I have not considered?