Bloody hell BBC

Because you could, in theory, lie about thing, does not mean that thing is badly defined. You could lie about your ability to speak German, whether you are a mother or not, what your sexuality or religious belief is. That does not reflect whether those concepts are valid. That is not to say that people lying about their gender identity could not be dangerous.

Of course you can lie about anything. But the difference with your construct of who is a woman or a man, and the examples you give above about lying, is that for these others you have some form of actual definition against which to verify a statement. If I said I can speak German, you can test my claim by speaking German to me. Similarly, if I am claiming to have a religious belief, you can ask me about the religion or check membership with a church. If I am claiming something about my sexuality, you can judge it by my history of sexual partners, etc.

This is absolutely not the case in what you're saying about what it means to be a woman. If your definition of "woman" is just whoever says "yes" to the question "are you a woman?", how are you going to test that? It literally means absolutely whoever says "yes." So, in fact, it becomes impossible to lie about womanhood with your definition. The mere act of saying "yes," regardless of feeling and motivation, IS womanhood to you because it will always meet your definition satisfactorily. ANYONE who says "yes" must be a woman. How can you say otherwise? This will include those individuals who may be saying "yes" with genuinely ill intent.

Can you really not see the problem with this? Again, how do I know if I am a woman in order to answer your question with a "yes" or "no"?

What is a woman?

People are conflating the way of discovering what someone's gender identity is, with finding out what their gender identity is.

You can't know what someone's favourite colour is without asking them, but the fact the only way you can find out about it is to ask (or make a guess based on other factors) does not make the concept redundant.

I'll try again. I am not the arbiter of what gender identity means, I've reported how it is defined and used in practice.

So, I've quoted the position of reputable medical and psychiatric bodies. They might all be wrong, they might have been nobbled or I might be wrong about the consensus.

Which is it?

This is totally circular then isn't it? 'I am whatever I say I am'. So I could be a woman one minute, a man the next, and then switch back and forth every minute. How can this be a meaningful way to categorise people?

Ask the same question about sexuality. Does it make sexuality redundant if people can lie about their sexuality, or even change it? No.

I spent quite a lot of my teenaged years thinking there was something wrong with me because I didn't think I was a woman, or feel like a woman inside, so I have a very low tolerance for that

YY me too. If I'd asked myself the question "Am I woman"? as a teenager, the answer would have been no.

It might be, but I don't understand it. What do you mean by characteristics? Behaviour? Something else?

It would be helpful if you could suggest any characteristics at all. So far you don't seem to have explained what characteristics a male person with a female 'gender identity' might have compared to a male person with a male 'gender identity'.

You've said it's not about gender expression, but you haven't said what it is, apart from some woolly stuff about an internal essence. Can you not see why it appears to be more like a spirit or a soul than an actual, scientific reality?

In my view "gender identity" is a political statement that people go along with because in the current climate to discuss it critically is harmful to one's career.

That however doesn't bring it into actual material existence.

I wonder at what point it became safe for scientists to say "God doesn't exist" without it posing a risk to their career.

It might be, but I don't understand it. What do you mean by characteristics? Behaviour? Something else?

let's start with an easy one

what are the main differences between a female gender ID and a male gender ID?

How do i know I'm not a man?

I've been basing that fact that I'm a woman on checking what's between my legs, but you say that's not it - so how do I know if I'm a man or a woman?

and please don't give me that 'of you think you're a woman you are one' thing

I spent quite a lot of my teenaged years thinking there was something wrong with me because I didn't think I was a woman, or feel like a woman inside, so I have a very low tolerance for that

As you said earlier, DadJoke, dictionaries follow common usage. So it would be useful to examine where the term 'gender identity' originated, wouldn't it?

As far as I am aware, one of the first people to use the term 'gender identity' was John Money. Think about that for a moment.

Here's an article about John Money for anyone who doesn't know about his experiments on children.

www.theguardian.com/books/2004/may/12/scienceandnature.gender

Gender expression and gender identity are independent. If they identify as a man, they are man.

This is totally circular then isn't it? 'I am whatever I say I am'. So I could be a woman one minute, a man the next, and then switch back and forth every minute. How can this be a meaningful way to categorise people?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

^why are we waiting?

whhhhyyy are waiiiiting?

what are the characteristics of a person with a female gender ID DadJoke?

this is a very easy question^

It might be, but I don't understand it. What do you mean by characteristics? Behaviour? Something else?

pancaketosser

If a male transsexual who presents as female but knows that they are male asks themselves the question "Am I man?" and they say yes, does that mean their gender identity is male? Because it's about the 'knowing'?"

Gender expression and gender identity are independent. If they identify as a man, they are man.

why are we waiting?

whhhhyyy are waiiiiting?

what are the characteristics of a person with a female gender ID DadJoke?

this is a very easy question

If a male transsexual who presents as female but knows that they are male asks themselves the question "Am I man?" and they say yes, does that mean their gender identity is male? Because it's about the 'knowing'?

The dispute is over whether phlogiston is real or not. It wasn't.

Just like 'gender identity', then.

pancaketosser

I've post a whole bunch up thread from a number of national and international scientific and medical bodies.

nauticant

What happens when a woman knows she's a woman but does not accept that she has a gender identity? In your world DadJoke she is somehow delusional or anti-science.

If gender identity is a scientifically valid term, then yes. That's what were are discussing. I think it is, you don't.

By analogy, scientists used to thing there was a substance called phlogiston, a substance supposed by chemists to exist in all combustible bodies, and to be released in combustion. I might say "you contain phlogiston" and you might say "there is no such thing as phlogiston." The dispute is over whether phlogiston is real or not. It wasn't.

If we stick to the scientific consensus on gender identity, can anyone point at a national or international medical or scientific body which does not accept gender identity as a real thing?

Then at least we can get to the point where we agree who is arguing against the scientific consensus.

No definition of gender identity yet? Shame.

let's see if we can help you out by consulting the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy

Meg John Barker has attempted to define the gender identity of woman, although it's still pretty woolly, but she's doing better that you DadJoke, in that it's not completely circular

Its appears that Mx Barker thinks that

Being a woman in a British cultural context often means adhering to social norms of femininity, such as being nurturing, caring, social, emotional, vulnerable, and concerned with appearance

Do you agree with this definition DadJoke ?

Words must have meanings which are defined other than people asking and answering them to themselves.

No, DadJoke, your argument is circular because you ask yourself ‘am I x’ and then if you say ‘I am x’ you are ‘x’.

Also, I am a woman because I am biologically a woman. Not because I ask myself if I am and then say ‘yes’.

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman

unhelpful

let's try phrasing the question a different way

what are the characteristics of a female gender identity?

how would you differentiate between a female gender ID and a male gender ID?

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

As several of us have already explained to you, DadJoke, that simply means that we are women in a biological sense. It says nothing about 'gender identity' - which you still haven't defined.

Alternatively if I say 'No, I'm a horse', does that mean my gender identity is 'horse'? Or does it mean that I'm suffering from a delusion which makes me think I'm a horse? Or does it mean that I'm giving a ridiculous answer to a ridiculous question?

Just to throw things back in your direction for a moment. What useful purpose does the idea of us all having a gender identity serve? Sex provides us with two useful categories to divide people into. What about 'gender identity'? In your opinion, what is useful and meaningful about people having a 'gender identity'? You might want to refer back to CharlieParley's superb post from last night which explains why the idea of 'gender' is so harmful, particularly to women.

heresyisthenewblack

And what if I lie in answer to the question "am I a woman?" Or change my mind 2 seconds after you've asked the question? How would you know what I am?

Because you could, in theory, lie about thing, does not mean that thing is badly defined. You could lie about your ability to speak German, whether you are a mother or not, what your sexuality or religious belief is. That does not reflect whether those concepts are valid. That is not to say that people lying about their gender identity could not be dangerous.

Ask yourself the question "Am I woman"? If the answer is yes, then your gender identity is woman.

What happens when a woman knows she's a woman but does not accept that she has a gender identity? In your world DadJoke she is somehow delusional or anti-science.

I still can't figure out what you're trying to do on this thread.

I think it's a combination of fear, not wanting the hassle, and not caring about the consequences of this ideology.