Bloody hell BBC

OldCrone
You know your sexuality because you know who you're attracted to. How do you know your gender identity?

How do I know what I know? I'm afraid that question is too metaphysical for me. How do you know what your favourite colour is?

If this was something that everyone had, we would ALL have it.
But it's not and we don't.
Distress at one's body - yes, I can understand that. But gender identity - pure made up bullshit.

Nothing definable and therefore not legislatable. Just legal fiction.

CaptainMarvelBunting

I really didn't want to engage with this issue on this thread, but I was told I would be being all Anthony Watson if I didn't. I promise I am not trying to waste anyone's time and that I am engaging in good faith. It's not pleasure for me to do it, nor am I getting any kicks out of it.

I have skin in the game - not like you do, of course - I have a daughter and son, and the outcome of this culture war will have an impact on them. I do not like the way TRAs call out any disagreement as transphobic, and I've been called a terf for supporting sex segregated sports.

heresyisthenewblack

Your position here supports the view that you think that the medical establishment are pretending that gender identity is real to assist transgender people. Is that a fair summary?

If we stick to the scientific consensus on gender identity, can anyone point at a national or international medical or scientific body which does not accept gender identity as a real thing?

Scientific consensus normally comes about from research and publication in scientific journals. Can you post some links to this research, since you seem to be familiar with it?

I know I am man, therefore my gender identity is a man. I know that my gender identity isn't anything else in the same way I know my sexuality.

You know your sexuality because you know who you're attracted to. How do you know your gender identity?

OldCrone
I know I am man, therefore my gender identity is a man. I know that my gender identity isn't anything else in the same way I know my sexuality.

BickerinBrattle
Accepting that gender identity is real does not mean that the protected characteristic of sex should be undermined. It doesn't mean that trans women should be allowed into women's sports, for example.

I am still waiting for anyone to post anything from any reputable national or international psychiatric or medical association which suggests the gender identity is other than accepted as a real.
I'll assume, then that there is no such body.

It's a thing some men do. 'Please women patiently explain, while I'm really annoyingly logical and superior and hair splitting, your oppression and distress, and justify it to my full satisfaction, while I smile and pick holes in something I have no skin in the game of, no emotional connection to, which matters to me not a jot. Because it amuses me.'

As if women only have the right to have concerns if Mr Reasonable and Endlessly Logical grants it to them.

Fuck that.

Captain , always for the lurkers. The ideology gets shown up in all it's illogical, indefensible batshit glory.

I'll start with Mosby's medical dictionary:
"the inner sense of maleness or femaleness. Differentiation of gender identity begins in infancy, continues throughout childhood, and is reinforced during adolescence. Also called core gender identity."

McGraw Hill medical dictionary: "Core gender identity 'The inner conviction that one is male, female, ambivalent, or neutral.'GI is a major personality trait, that develops in the first 2 yrs of life, and is 'fixed' by the 3rd yr."

Collin's medical dictionary " The inherent sense that one belongs to a particular sex. In almost all cases that sex corresponds to the anatomical sex, but for a small minority, the gender identity is for the opposite anatomical sex."

The American Association of Psychiatry defines it as "(the psychological sense of being male or female)" alongside sexuality and social gender role.

The APS defines it as "to one’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else."

Compare that to the definition of soul:
The spiritual part of a person that some people believe continues to exist in some form after their body has died, or the part of a person that is not physical and experiences deep feelings and emotions.
dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/soul

Gender identity genuinely has no definition that is logically coherent (i.e. what does it "feel like" to be male or female or "something else"? And what is that "something else" in a sexually dimorphic species?). It is a false assumption that everyone has a gender identity, simply because a (likely aetiologically heterogenous) group of people are distressed over their sexed bodies or gender role in society. As mentioned before, even within the trans umbrella there is neutrois: a gender identity that doesn't have a gender identity. How does that fit in with all this?

Gender identity, I think, is a term medical professionals and trans people are using to give language to the phenomenon of people who believe they are (or should be) the opposite sex. Probably because the word "delusion" is rightly felt to be too harsh. But I would argue that the definition of the word delusion as a fixed false belief is reasonably applicable to this context. The fixed belief one is the opposite sex is demonstrably false. I am really sorry, but this is just a fact. So in order to avoid calling what is going on with trans people a delusion, one needs to construct another concept: gender identity. The fixed belief one has this other thing called a gender identity, and that it is not matched with one's sex, is as demonstrable as the existence of a soul. Both are completely internal and intangible. So you can't call someone's belief in a specific gender identity a delusion, because you can't demonstrate whether it's true or false. The evidence for and against will be similarly circular and metaphysical as the evidence for and against other unverifiable convictions. You either believe, or you don't. We correctly accept that some people want to live their lives according to their beliefs about gender identity as long as they don't hurt anyone else, similarly to people who believe in other unprovable things like Jesus being the son of God. That's why I think comparing it to a religion is the best parallel. It also helps explain why those who don't "share the faith," as it were, get so offended by the thought of enshrining these quite niche beliefs about gender and sex into law.

Captain

I'm thinking of the lurkers. I really would like to know how DadJoke knows he's a man, though, and doesn't think he might be mistaken and actually be a woman.

At this point, I'm not really sure why there a number of intelligent women spending their time on writing carefully analytical posts, instead of offering a few tasty fish and a big beach ball for DadJoke to balance on his nose.

So it all comes down to Say-So again.

I, a male, am a woman because I say I am a woman, and you women must accept that because I say so. There is no objective test of my woman-ness. There is no definition of woman-ness I can be held to. But I am a woman and not only must uphold that, you must do so under penalty of LAW. Without objective test, without anything that can be proven by evidence, the LAW accepts me as a woman and therefore entitled to EVERY remedy established in law to make up for millennia of female oppression I myself was never subject to and in fact did my part to enforce (as I’m doing now - hahaha) but gratefully I will accept any women’s sporting awards, scholarships, or achievement awards and with pleasure I will enter any female space I damn please.

I don’t think even the monarch holds such power of command.

Your gender identity is your knowledge of yourself a man, woman or neither. Usually this matches your sex defined at birth. If not, you are transgender.

Can you answer a couple of questions, DadJoke? I know you've been asked quite a lot of questions, but I think these are critical to our understanding of this issue.

What is your gender identity? How do you know you have that gender identity and not another gender identity?

I am really not sure how much clearer I can be.

You likely can't be clearer... which is to say you remain unclear!

Ereshkigal

Yes it is. What is the difference between a "man" gender identity and a "woman" one? If you can't define it, it's not a useful concept.

It's not circular, but I do feel like we are going round in circles.

Your gender identity is your knowledge of yourself a man, woman or neither. Usually this matches your sex defined at birth. If not, you are transgender. I am really not sure how much clearer I can be. Do you know you are a woman? You are a woman. Do you know you are a man? You are a man. That's the difference.

That's not circular.

Yes it is. What is the difference between a "man" gender identity and a "woman" one? If you can't define it, it's not a useful concept.

OldCrone
But we don't change the way we treat people in society because of their sexuality (at least we shouldn't do).

I agree - that is why it's a protected characteristic.

And yes, gender identity categories can conflict with the protected interests of sex interest categories. None of this speaks to whether gender identity is real. Even if you accept it is, none of the concerns radical feminists express over sex segregation are any less valid just because it's a real category.

It's vital that the two are not conflated, which is what TRAs constantly try to do.

I have no idea if they say it should be treated as more important than sex. If they did, I would disagree with them.

What use is it to label people with a gender identity, then? What purpose does it serve? Is it any more important or useful than knowing someone's favourite colour?

Here's one of the definitions of 'gender identity' from one of the sources on this page

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/gender+identity

gender identity: a person's concept of himself or herself as being male and masculine or female and feminine, or ambivalent, usually based on physical characteristics, parental attitudes and expectations, and psychological and social pressures. It is the private experience of gender role.

gender role: the public expression of gender; the image projected by a person that identifies their maleness or femaleness, which need not correspond to their gender identity.

These definitions are both from the Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine.

So this dictionary actually has a circular definition of gender identity and gender role which contradicts itself. According to them, a 'gender identity' is the 'private experience of gender role', which in turn 'need not correspond to their gender identity'.

OldCrone

I might have missed it, but I don't think any of them said that 'gender identity' which is an internal essence or feeling, should be treated as more important than sex. Do they?

First, none of the definitions of gender identity is an "essence" any more than sexuality is. I have no idea if they say it should be treated as more important than sex. If they did, I would disagree with them.

So, I've quoted the position of reputable medical and psychiatric bodies. They might all be wrong, they might have been nobbled or I might be wrong about the consensus.

I might have missed it, but I don't think any of them said that 'gender identity' which is an internal essence or feeling, should be treated as more important than sex. Do they?

Does it make sexuality redundant if people can lie about their sexuality, or even change it? No.

But we don't change the way we treat people in society because of their sexuality (at least we shouldn't do).

The problem with 'gender identity' is that it has real, physical consequences. Less so for men, which is why it's possibly harder for you to see the problems. If all there was to 'gender identity' was a man, who one morning announced to the world 'I'm a woman today', and we could all just get on with our lives, simply thinking 'why did he need to say that?', as we might if someone had just walked in saying 'I'm gay today', there wouldn't be a problem.

But what actually happens, is a man puts on a dress, a wig and some make-up, announces he's a woman, and walks in to the women's toilets and changing rooms, making the women and girls in there uncomfortable. Why should his 'gender identity', which can change from day to day, be seen as more important than his sex, which stays the same?

A confused teenager, feeling out of step with other children of their sex, decides that it must be because they have an opposite sex gender identity. This is increasingly happening to teenage girls, who in the current climate end up on a conveyor belt of puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgery. How is this comparable to a teenager realising that they are attracted to people of the same sex?

Sorry that should have been "People are conflating the definition of gender identity, with the method of finding out what their gender identity is.

In my view "gender identity" is a political statement that people go along with because in the current climate to discuss it critically is harmful to one's career.

That however doesn't bring it into actual material existence.

I wonder at what point it became safe for scientists to say "God doesn't exist" without it posing a risk to their career.

This.