Bloody hell BBC

You're trying to flog the tired old argument that if trans women can't be mothers, women who adopt or are stepmothers aren't 'real' mothers either.

No not at all. I'm purely commenting on what somebody else said that mothers are those who have gestated and given birth to young - except all those other mothers I've listed have not gestated and given birth to young.

You're trying to flog the tired old argument that if trans women can't be mothers, women who adopt or are stepmothers aren't 'real' mothers either.

It's a false equivalence. It's been heard many, many times before and that still doesn't give it any validity. We're talking about whether male-bodied people can become female. Which they can't.

So an infertile female or a female born without ova is not a female?

And yet if Autumn chose to go down the route of transition she wouldn't be able to produce semen

A eunuch is male.

Do you think that someone who doesn't bear children because their female reproductive system doesn't work is the same as someone who doesn't bear children because they have a male reproductive system?

Definition of mother: a woman in relation to her child or children.

Definition of woman: an adult human female.

Definition of female: see above.

And yet if Autumn chose to go down the route of transition she wouldn't be able to produce semen.

Yes, but Autumn will still be of the sex which produces semen?

So an infertile female or a female born without ova is not a female?

Dictionary definition of female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs

A woman who is born without ova or is infertile is still of the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs.

Someone who is born XY male, takes drugs to make them infertile, gets their genitals removed is not of the sex that can bear offspring or produce ova.

And yet if Autumn chose to go down the route of transition she wouldn't be able to produce semen.

I've had a hysterectomy. Still a woman.

For someone who signed up here claiming to be GC, you seem awfully fond of TRA talking points

I have no idea what either of those abbreviations mean.

Oh, this again. It's still nonsensical however many times it's trotted out.

How on earth is it nonsensical? I wasn't referring to being a woman I was referring specifically to the absurd notion that Autumn can't be a mother if that's what she chooses in the future.

Don’t be silly. Lots of us are adopted/step mothers - that’s a legal status. Valid but different (same as trans identified males can apply for a legal status that makes them valid but different).
Some of us couldn’t become mothers and joined Mumsnet to talk about those fertility problems. Some of us have had women’s cancers and/or hysterectomies. We know what a woman is because we all came out of one.
For someone who signed up here claiming to be GC, you seem awfully fond of TRA talking points.

SarahH12
Obviously they are. Females without ova or infertile are still females. Castrated males are still genetically male even if they transition into transfemales.

Just seems like a lot of you then think adopted mothers are not mothers or step mothers are not mothers or those who have surrogate babies are not mothers. Because you know they haven't "gestated and given birth to young.

Oh, this again. It's still nonsensical however many times it's trotted out.

I've never had children. I'm still a woman.

Autumn can never be a woman.

Just seems like a lot of you then think adopted mothers are not mothers or step mothers are not mothers or those who have surrogate babies are not mothers. Because you know they haven't "gestated and given birth to young."

Females are members of the sex with XX chromosomes, who bear ova (which were formed while she was still in her own mother's uterus) and are able to gestate and bear young.

So an infertile female or a female born without ova is not a female?

Males are the sex who produce semen

And yet if Autumn chose to go down the route of transition she wouldn't be able to produce semen.

It’s not our fault Autumn won’t be a mother - biology is the bigot, not Mumsnetters.
Autumn is a male child who may or may not grow up to have gender dysphoria. Autumn can be a parent, and Autumn can get married. To a man, or a woman. This is a good thing.
Crikey, I haven’t even encouraged my kids to believe in Santa (or Jesus) - I certainly don’t want society/school/the parents of similar aged children telling my kids they can change sex. Sex is determined at conception and affects the way our children grow and the medical treatments they receive - boys with ALL (a common childhood Leukaemia) need a whole extra year of chemotherapy. Sex matters.

Autumn has a child's view of the future, probably built on Disney films and toys.

Of course Autumn isn't going to have thought through the implications of damaged genitals on future sexual pleasure or of cross-sex hormones on fertility and parenthood. But someone needs to make sure that Autumn knows the basic facts of life in an age-appropriate fashion.

(The child's mother may have said very few of the things she's quoted as saying, from second-hand experience of this sort of reporting.)

But a lot of what is posted here is vile, that Autumn can't be a woman, a mother,

Ummm. Let's say this slowly.

Males can't become women or mothers.

Mothers are females who have gestated and given birth to young.

Females are members of the sex with XX chromosomes, who bear ova (which were formed while she was still in her own mother's uterus) and are able to gestate and bear young.

Males are the sex who produce semen which can fertilise ova, but males cannot produce them or gestate or bear young.

Humans cannot change sex.

Therefore males cannot become mothers.

Sadly the facts of life are vile to some people. Ah well. Their opinion does nothing to change the facts of life. It does show them up to be a sandwich short of a picnic though. Reality itself must be very challenging to navigate.

find someone to get married etc.

Most people are attracted to someone's sex and prefer a partner with natural, healthy, sensitive and properly formed genitalia. Interfering with someone's genitals with medicine and surgery will reduce the number of people attracted to them.

Most people prefer a partner where they feel able to name reality and not tread on eggshells to enable them to live a lie.

But some still find love and partnership in spite of these reduced chances.

Sarah well, for a start I wouldn't even contemplate telling my child the monstrous lie that they can change sex. That would be my starting point. I find it rather horrific that any parent would consider telling this lie to be their starting point.

At some point someone is going to have to sit Autumn down and explain it's a lie that she can be a mother. The women who find out they're infertile when they ttc suffer horribly. Why is the poor child being built up to suffer that disappointment? At what point will they discuss this? It's not like finding out about the tooth fairy.

Urgh! Just seen that photo on the bbc front page. It does look like the painted black and white publicity picture of a 1930s starlet.

Children need to know they are loved and that comes with helping them to learn reality and how to deal with it if they are to survive adulthood and all the brickbats it throws. Imagination in children is to be treasured; no one wants to dampen that.

SarahH12 it's sad and not palatable and not what we're supposed to do, but it's the truth. Refusing to tell polite lies is not comfortable,but it's not vile.

There's a reason so many people who are trans kill themselves and it's because of the way society treats them including with a lot of the rubbish and hate peddled here.

Source? Actually, don’t bother. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that’s bullshit.

Autumn can't be a woman

A woman is an adult human female, so no, Autumn can't, because Autumn will grow up to be an adult human male.

ODFOD. Some of us have kids who have identified as trans and you can stick your suicide peddling manipulation where the sun don't shine.

And should it turn out to be the only path viable, support and acceptance

And this is exactly how it should be. I don't disagree that asking difficult questions is the right path. But a lot of what is posted here is vile, that Autumn can't be a woman, a mother, find someone to get married etc.

I really don't know what a lot of you are trying to achieve. There's a reason so many people who are trans kill themselves and it's because of the way society treats them including with a lot of the rubbish and hate peddled here.

SarahH12 with love and biological truth rather than tired gender stereotypes and proper, qualified therapists not jelly baby-peddling woo merchants.

And should it turn out to be the only path viable, support and acceptance. Love means asking the difficult questions and making yourself unpopular sometimes.