Bloody hell BBC

What exactly are you all trying to achieve except promoting transphobic, backwards thinking hate speech?

How about 'a greater chance of long-term happiness for children'? I think that's what we all want, but we strongly disagree about whether clear explanation of facts to children (and indeed adults) is the best thing.

We do need words that denote the two sexes separately in order to explain such things. I think we get mired in Total Doofus territory very quickly otherwise.

Remember that a child doesn't automatically know that only females give birth. If s/he's told a transgirl can become a mother, s/he won't assume that's by adoption, surrogacy or stepparenthood. S/He'll think it means 'grow a baby in my tummy', and that some awfully clever medical thingy will make it happen.

S/He needs to know that that is a far, far distant if not impossible prospect, fraught with ethical and immunological difficulties, and that male bodies DO NOT give birth.

I think we can't change our chromosomes but we can (and people do) change gender via transitioning. I can't see any harm in that really and don't understand why people are so against it when it has no impact on their lives.

Yes, but you are still changing sex. A boy can never become a girl. A perfectly healthy, sexually functional male becomes a permanently infertile male who may well have lifelong complications from surgery and sexual dysfunction.

Is that really what you are advocating?

People are against this because they care about children and they don't want children pushed into changes that will affect them forever, when they are at a stage when they cannot possibly understand that.

I’d rather see surrogacy completely outlawed, as in Sweden

Slightly off topic but why would you rather it be outlawed?

Re lesbian parents I didn't necessarily mean from a law perspective, I meant from an every day perspective.

Actually the law says that lesbian couples who had a baby through donor insemination, carried by one of the partners are the mother and ‘parent 2’.
How the family describe themselves via pet names is up to them. Up until very recently the birth mother had to relinquish her rights and co adopt her own child with her partner. Bonkers. I’m glad that’s been sorted out (I know this because I was interviewed by SS as a character reference for a lesbian friend).

As for surrogacy - the baby remains the child of the birth mother until adoption takes place, even if the child is genetically not her baby. I’d rather see surrogacy completely outlawed, as in Sweden, but failing that, I support the legal precedent remaining as is in the U.K.
A baby is a human, not a commodity, and the law, favouring the the birth mother, reflects that.

I like adults who teach children about all the options including those that many here disagree with. People can and do transition and have gender reassignment surgery, hormone blockers etc and I really don't see anything wrong with that if it's what the person experiencing gender dysphoria wants.

Yes, but if that person has been told that having surgery and taking drugs will actually change their sex (when it won't) its not really informed consent is it?

Also, if someone with body dysmorphia hated their legs and wanted their legs chopped off, would you be fine with that happening if that was what the person wanted? Why is that not common practice?

Ta Sarah. Missed that.

Why would you teach a child that they can change sex when it's not true? You yourself just said you know that you can't change sex?

I think we can't change our chromosomes but we can (and people do) change gender via transitioning. I can't see any harm in that really and don't understand why people are so against it when it has no impact on their lives.

Yes absolutely. For a child such as Autumn who appears to be experiencing gender dysphoria I think all options should be explored including the possibility of transitioning at a later stage.

Why would you teach a child that they can change sex when it's not true? You yourself just said you know that you can't change sex?

You just don't like adults teaching children facts about what can and can't be.

I like adults who teach children about all the options including those that many here disagree with. People can and do transition and have gender reassignment surgery, hormone blockers etc and I really don't see anything wrong with that if it's what the person experiencing gender dysphoria wants.

*Sarah you seem to be missing the point here. We’re not concerned with semantics about the definition of the word ‘mother’. We care about a 9yo kid who is being told a pack of lies and being led down an unrealistic and impossible path. We can’t bear to see kids being unnecessarily deprived of healthy bodies, the chance to become a parent, future sexual function.

Yes, this basically!

Do you think it is right to teach children that they can change sex?

Yes absolutely. For a child such as Autumn who appears to be experiencing gender dysphoria I think all options should be explored including the possibility of transitioning at a later stage.

How do you feel about telling a child lies which could have such an enormous effect on their whole life?

I don't see it as a lie. I see it as supporting a child who is most likely going through a very difficult time and exploring all the options with her.

I just noticed I can't count. My 'couple of questions' turned out to be 3 questions, and the 'one more' turned into 2.

Sarah what that definition got wrong is that the phrasing 'potential' was missed out. So a female has the 'potential to produce eggs and bear young'.

But I don't think that's what you're really bothered about, is it? You've just latched on to that point.

You just don't like adults teaching children facts about what can and can't be.

One more question, Sarah.

Do you think it is right to teach children that they can change sex?

This is what Autumn's parents and teachers are doing by telling Autumn that Autumn can grow up to be a woman and a mother.

How do you feel about telling a child lies which could have such an enormous effect on their whole life?

Did somebody type that on this thread? I may have missed that. Could you point it out?

@AornisHades from @WeRiseUp on page 8, Today at 9:15

Mothers are females who have gestated and given birth to young.

Xpost with Rocky

Do you understand how babies are made?
As I've said numerous times, gestating and giving birth to a baby doesn't make you their mother. You can be a mother in a number of ways including when you're not genetically related to the baby. Nobody seems to be answering the question of would you say in a lesbian couple only one of them is mother because the baby only came from one of their eggs? Of course not, you'd say that they're both the baby's mother.

Do you understand how we know whether a baby is male or female when it's born?

I understand how a doctor defines it but nobody can predict at birth whether a child will have gender dysphoria.

Do you think people can change sex?

Gender and sex are two different things. I think a person can change gender.

What exactly are you all trying to achieve except promoting transphobic, backwards thinking hate speech?

I'm purely commenting on what somebody else said that mothers are those who have gestated and given birth to young

Did somebody type that on this thread? I may have missed that. Could you point it out?

Ah OK, I see you are referring to this comment.

Mothers are females who have gestated and given birth to young.

I see what you are saying but the definition of 'mother' is 'a woman in relation to her child'.

Autumn will never be a woman, therefore Autumn will never be a mother.

And yet if Autumn chose to go down the route of transition she wouldn't be able to produce semen.

An infertile man is not a woman. Just as an infertile woman is not a man. HTH.

No not at all. I'm purely commenting on what somebody else said that mothers are those who have gestated and given birth to young - except all those other mothers I've listed have not gestated and given birth to young.

If you are referring to this post:

Females are members of the sex with XX chromosomes, who bear ova (which were formed while she was still in her own mother's uterus) and are able to gestate and bear young.

That is not what was said.

So an infertile female or a female born without ova is not a female?

Oh dear, not that one again. Sarah, since you seem to be having difficulty with the arguments here, perhaps you could answer a couple of questions.

Do you understand how babies are made?

Do you understand how we know whether a baby is male or female when it's born?

Do you think people can change sex?

Cats have fur and humans don't.

So this a picture of a human or a cat Sarah?

I bet you are scratching your head arent you.

That bicycle video will never get old - 'it's a freaking bicylce'!

Brilliant analogy.