04/03/2019 BBC Scotland - The Nine - Transgender Footballer

Full version is here.

pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a/bd2c1e03ba88e9ac8da94ea1d69ff3f4878a.pdf?_ga=2.254440527.659551599.1550520323-1192624875.1550520323

Still bollocks though.

...indeed.

I am no scientist (not that it stops other people) so what does "data was collected and, where possible, verified" mean?

And I know a self-selecting sample when I see one.

And in todays news - how is this fair?!

Joanna Harper, a medical physicist who advises the IOC on regulations for transgender athletes and is herself transgender, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that hormone therapy made it a more level playing field.

"...Yes. That's all of it. Two sides of A4."

That's not all of it

Full version is here.

pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a/bd2c1e03ba88e9ac8da94ea1d69ff3f4878a.pdf?_ga=2.254440527.659551599.1550520323-1192624875.1550520323

Still bollocks though.

Actually the interviewer in the Mckinnon interview pointed all that out (bigger heart, lungs, longer legs etc) and McKinnon then just banged on about testosterone and how the studies show it makes no difference...which would therefore prove the point that it’s the things that can’t be changed that make the most difference ie taller, stronger, heart and lungs etc. What a numpty

Male athletes have 100% more dick than female.

T was only ever a proxy, to be more, civilised.

The point was never that T decides whether you are m/f rather than cunt /dick (and all of the other differences which are many).

I wish people would stop banging on about testosterone levels. They were only used in tests in the past to pick up males cheating and competing as women. It was more civilised than inspecting athletes genitals.
The massive physical advantage that men have is still there even if their testosterone level is zero.
They have much larger hearts and lungs, higher cardiac output, higher oxygen carrying capacity, larger shoulder girdle, narrower pelvis, more efficient hips for running, longer legs and arms - none of this is reduced one whit by lowering testosterone.

If the BBC and other media asked bloody doctors and physiologists instead of letting transgender spokesmen peddle outright lies, the debate would be a lot further forward. And transgenders would be banned outright from women’s sport.

"Many high performing male athletes have less testosterone than female athletes. Lowest testosterone men same as lowest testosterone women"

Why does McK think this supports their case?

If T is nothing to do with it then it must be something else and so lowering T is no reason to allow men to compete against women.

I have a family member whose T is through the floor for unknown reasons. Bogstandard bloke, still taller and wider than any woman's going to be. 6'2 used to play rugby. Can bench press 120kg, this person is not in shape.

What they are, is male. With an unidentified issue affecting their hormone profile.

Will men like this be able to compete against women? Even if they don't identify as one?
As long as their T ;evels are OK?

If not why not?

If it's about internal ID then how on earth does that relate to things that are due to physicality in any way??

It's all nonsense.

Women are not testosterone free men.

Many high performing male athletes have less testosterone than female athletes. Lowest testosterone men same as lowest testosterone women

Regardless, all this proves is that it's about far more than current T levels. The advantages given by being male start from birth and all comparisons of statistics across segregated sports prove it at all ages.

I used to play football, mostly kick about nothing serious.

Stopped after the time a mixed game left me with a black eye. Took a male shoulder to my eye socket, total accidental injury but would never have happened in an all woman game. Even as a bullet proof teenager that injury was enough to put me off.

It would be very rare to have that height difference and force level on an all woman line up.

Male-born person wants to play on the women's team, women are expected to move over and allow this. It's quite a contrast with what happens when a female-born person transitions.

Different sport and country, but this is what happened to one such person. Kian was born female:

Throughout his childhood, Kian and his twin sister played hockey on girls’ recreational and competitive teams. When Kian started transitioning, he didn’t want to play with the girls anymore, so he went to play with the boys on a house league team.

Kian said he was treated poorly by his teammates and coaches. Even other parents started talking about him behind his back.

The last straw came when his teammates locked him in the bathroom at an away game.

“They were saying, ‘Oh yeah, it was an accident,' or 'It was just a joke, like, he knew.’ And the coach was like, ‘It wasn't a joke.’ He knew that they had locked me in there. And I went out, played that game, came back in, changed and that was the last game I ever played," Kian said. "I just kind of said ... ‘Goodbye, I don't need this.’”

That’s when Kian quit the game he loved.

newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/transgender-teen-ontario

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3523542-17yo-transmale-child

In short, girls and women always lose out.

The Harper Study:

www.sportsci.org/2016/WCPASabstracts/ID-1699.pdf

...Yes. That's all of it. Two sides of A4.

What would you say to that as a piece of undergraduate coursework?

Did McKinnon do cycling when they were identifying as a man? I note that they refuse to say anything about their sporting prowess then.

Maybe that's because their times were very similar to now?

" A photo never lies, you can see from the size of the head that individual is Male. Completely different bone structure to a female."

Blair's FB page also shows them playing as an outfield player (not a GK) against the women, which is potentially very dangerous IMO.

"Usually after a game, girls come up to me and say, 'I'm so glad to see you play because it's making the sport more inclusive'.

Yeah right.

I see no quote from any other players, male or female.

What would the wonderfully accepting women's football team make of turning up to a game and finding the opposition was an all male bodied women's team?

Would they be happy being called "girls" as grown (all inclusive accepting "nice" budging up) women then? It's an incredibly sexist and insulting article and I note the bbc mention Navratilova's imaginary retraction and then link to their own article imagining that retraction instead of to her actual statement.

This is propaganda.

Ah... that’ll explain why my DP was showing me that team photo last night, he was pointing out that not only are they bigger than the players, they’re bigger than the male coaches.

The sports side of it has really grabbed his attention, he plays and watches football and has spent the last few days getting really irate about it.

I might have stirred him up a bit when I noticed our MP signed that letter that went out... as him and his equally avid football fan friends are all active SNP party members...

A photo never lies, you can see from the size of the head that individual is Male. Completely different bone structure to a female.

Oh I only saw the bit that was on the 6.30 news. They must have cut it for 6.30 news as only Sharron was on and the football player was on the beach

After reading tithe BBC article and then looking at the accompanying photos my blood pressure rose greatly. Towering over the women, looking like the man they are but claiming they had no advantage and were weakened due to hormones. The narcissism and lack of self awareness is unbelievable.

Well, my eye went straight to the man in the centre of the photograph of the women's football team. Nuff said.

The Harper study is a crock of shit involving ordinary people who changed gender with no particular rhyme or reason as to their training regime, health, etc. before and after transition.

It's 100% worthless and anyone who cites it in anything is a fucking idiot

There are NO peer-reviewed studies that show what McKinnon claims. None. McKinnon is straight-up bullshitting. I don’t know why journalists will never call a li a lie. I would deeply respect any who would.

The only study the IOC used was the Harper study, which is severely flawed and truly not scientific at all, comprised of a very small self-selected group self-reporting.

Trans athletes only ever compare themselves to themselves. There is no studied comparison, only assertion, regarding transwomen relative to women.

Critics need to look at science, what is does to body

I wasn't aware that surgery and hormones made you grow / shrink.

Maybe I should identify as a man, and this way I will stop being 5' 1" and instantly become 5'8".

Science of this level isn't difficult to understand. Men grow more than women and are heavier than women because they still have a higher muscle ratio no matter how doped up with drugs they are.

Bloody hell I just watched Angela Haggerty and Susan Smith and how rude was Angela?! Absolutely talked across Susan Smith on so many occasions it was embarrassing to watch. Susan tried to make her points but was cut off so many times despite calmly trying to finish her sentences. I hope Angela watches that back and realises that she came across so aggressively and it did nothing for her argument (which is basically summarised as ‘everyone’s accusing trans people of being violent perverts and scaremongering about hypothetical scenarios that never happen’) Even the interviewer seemed to grasp that that wasn’t the case at all and tried his best to let Susan finish her arguments but wasn’t that successful. Appalling behaviour.