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Original poster

How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

161 replies

SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:04

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

OP posts:
rightreckoner · 04/03/2019 21:37

I think the issue is most people don’t know the extent to which TRAs are about the normalisation of and acceptance of AGP.

Anything that draws attention to the male sexual entitlement behind some of this agenda is fine by me.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 21:35

What you're describing is your fear that women demonstrating in a way you disagree with is embarrassing to you as you share some of their views. You appear to have started a thread to complain about it. I mean, fair enough. Not sure how you think that will further women's rights either, though. Looks to me like you're telling the demonstrators to be nice, and that never really flies well.

DpWm · 04/03/2019 21:32

OP, the protesters see it all as gross promotion of AGP which we know is behind a lot of the damage being done to women's rights, but on the surface it does come across a bit like, But... I thought you were OK about trans identified people expressing themselves however they wish no? So long as they don't infringe on women's rights, no? I agree with you.

I would actually prefer they had a lingerie section all to themselves to be honest, rather than buying the stuff made for women.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 21:30

Tbh, I couldne care less what impression you think it gives. I support women protesting in whatever legal manner they deem appropriate, nice or not.

You don't like this protest, fine. Women are not a homogenous lump with one official spokesperson, so you're perfectly capable of explaining to people that you have GC views and distancing yourself from this protest if you want to.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:29

Yes sorry had a think

Julia and Co Rd got keen on lingerie for women

I expect they always have red lace thongs on under their less feminine outerwear

They are angry because lingerie is special to women and men should not be allowed to wear it

You have not nail on head

Well done

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:29

You (reasonably) accuse trans activists of groupthink and cult like behaviour, but the anger at someone daring to disagree with you even slightly is unreal.

OP posts:
SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:28

I'm not telling anyone what they may or may not do, I don't have that power. I do have exactly as much right as they do to critique the actions of others, and to discuss what I perceive are the consequences.

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SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:27

Tell you what, if you don't mind, you don't have to picket.

OK?

Stop trying to tell women with years of feminist thinking and activism under their belts what they may or may not do

Fucking hell

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:26

@rightreckone So the feminist stance is that lacy lingerie should only be available to natal/cis women, or that it should be banned for everyone? Neither of those sound right to me

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SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:25

I could write pages on lingerie

But I'm on my phone so I won't

It's not hard to find feminist critique of it
Sure it's been done more on MN

So have a read of all that, then have a think.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:25

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious But that's not what picketing an event like this portrays. The impression given is that you're opposed to people with male bodies being able to purchase and wear the sort of lingerie that's routinely available in normal women's sizes.

I've read plenty of critiques of pornification and all the rest of it, but as a cis/natal woman (I'm really not looking for a pointless argument about terminology) nobody has ever tried to directly shame me for buying lacy undies.

OP posts:
SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:23

Julia is feministing wrong
She may put people off

Oh noes! She'll be gutted to hear that. I'm sure she's never heard it before.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rightreckoner · 04/03/2019 21:23

Would you get it if it was selling merchandise to help you black up?

This is about allowing people colonise womanhood so that they can get more enjoyment out of their sexual fetish.

Nowt to do with gender dysphoria.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 21:22

There have been threads on FWR alone in the last few weeks talking about lingerie from a feminist perspective. Quite a lot of us are very vocally aagainst lacy frills being held up as 'empowering' to women. The specific issue being highlighted in the protest you reference is lacy frills being indicative of some men's absurd notions of what it means to be a woman.

It's not about restricting uncomfortable lingerie to women. It's about some people defining 'woman' as lingerie clad sex fantasy.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:21

As I've said, I'm probably on the same page as most of you when it comes to the big substantive issues. I think porn is a major social problem. I think fetishists who don't truly struggle with gender dysphoria are increasingly influential in online discussions on these issues. I find Mermaids going into schools and telling six year old they have a "gender jelly baby" inside them and might need to change their body to match terrifying.

However, things like this makes it harder to take those positions publicly because it seems spiteful and motivated primarily be dislike of trans people. It makes it harder to defend against the argument being gender critical means hating trans people. I don't know what it's supposed to achieve besides upsetting people and hardening the battle lines.

OP posts:
DpWm · 04/03/2019 21:20

It's not the sort of thing I could get het-up about myself.
If trans people want to wear sexy lingerie they should be able to, and also it is clearly a transgender lingerie show, none of them are claiming to actually be women, it is all very clearly designed for male bodied people, and everyone can see that, so I don't think it was an appropriate time or place to protest.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:17

I think you need to go away and read up on these women as individuals, some of the things they have published, watch some videos.

Julia Long is awesome I heard her speak years ago before this trans stuff kicked off.

To essentially accuse her & others of being one trick ponies / hypocrites is, genuinely, pathetic.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:16

@SardineQueenII

I've read plenty of old school feminists. I know the broad criticisms, and I still think there's a difference between that and specifically targeting this show.

OP posts:
SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:15

WTF you have read the Internet and can find no feminist critiques of lingerie!?

You can't have looked very hard.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:15

@WellErrr

Yes, it's a free country. And I decided to start a conversation about whether this particular protest was good or worthwhile, because I don't think it is.

Apart from anything else, I think it's likely to seem pointlessly nasty to many people who might be supportive on the major issues.

OP posts: