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Original poster

How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

161 replies

SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:04

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 04/03/2019 22:05

‘Furthering Women’s Rights’?

‘Protecting’ is more apt.

Male people who consider the most limiting aspects of sex-stereotypes to be the key aspects of womanhood are part of the problem, and ignoring that won’t bring us to any solutions.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:04

@McTufty

I wasn't suggesting people had threatened violence or similar, I just think there are parallels in terms of the anger at any sort of dissent. Maybe it's a general talking about politics online thing.

I agree with you that there's that thread in trans conceptions of womanhood, but it's part of wider conceptions of womanhood. It's not surprising to me that people who feel they were born in the wrong body would want to confirm to the same norms everyone who perceives themselves as a woman is told they should conform to.

I do know about the nastier stuff, like the sissification fetish that really does seem akin to blackface or something, where the sexual stimulation comes from the idea being a woman is degrading, I just don't think that's the same as having gender dysphoria.

Online conversation isn't the same as real life, and trans people are often still very marginalised. I do think protests like this just seem like nasty targeting of a marginalised community. The argument isn't that feminists should never do anything that alienates people, it's that this seems pretty cruel for very little gain.

OP posts:
FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 22:00

sparrow, I note that in your last post before my previous post, you were quite resigned and accepting of gender norms and restrictions. I agree with you that gendered expectations are the problem. That's why I think protesting against them in lots of different ways is a good thing, and not just shrugging and saying 'that's the way it is'

McTufty · 04/03/2019 21:58

Needs of men as in sexual needs/desires of men

Whatisthisfuckery · 04/03/2019 21:58

I’ve read through the thread again OP and I can’t see where someone has attacked you. Was it on a different thread? Can you link to it please, in the interests of fairness, obviously. I will of course acknowledge and report where attacks have taken place.

McTufty · 04/03/2019 21:57

OP people may be angry but no one has threatened you, said you should be punched, doxxed you/reported you to your employer or told you to die in a fire etc so please don’t imply the women here are in any way comparable to the TRAs.

The problem with it is lingerie is generally perceived as being worn by women to make them sexually attractive to men (with no counter balancing expectation, hence sardine’s post). This ties in with a concern about trans ideology that it draws upon a vision of womanhood that is tailored towards the needs of men eg wearing make up, posing provocatively etc

This obviously isn’t true of all trans women but there is a definite theme running through.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 21:56

The trans issue intersects with a lot of what is going on in feminist thought. That's the only reason the fucking topic is on these boards in the first place. When Munroe Bergdoff is parading around in skimpies, defining women by it, and an industry is springing up as more men feel emboldened to display their kinks which are predicated on deeply unhelpful notions of female attire, then I think if some women felt they wanted to protest it, they would be well within their rights.

And if you don't want to compare feminists to EDL supporters, I suggest not doing it.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:54

Well respected

Autocorrect

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:54

I'm not attacking you

I disagree with you

I think you are missing quite a big piece of this puzzle

I am trying to make you think

If you don't want to that's OK

But seems a bit off, when you are so happy to attack the actions of all respected feminists with years of activism under their belts

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:52

@SardineQueenII

My husband also pays attention to his physical appearance, in different ways to me. Less so, I would say, but that's the nature of gender norms.

My point is that aside from you right now, nobody has ever really attacked me for conforming to them. I don't see why people with gender dysphoria have a special responsibility to be unaffected by the same social messages I'm affected by.

OP posts:
SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:52

You like to get done up like a sexy doll for your husband.

What does he do that is equivalent?

Genuine question.

I know the answer. He doesnt get done up in little bits of lace for you, as he is a man, and men are not decorative sex objects.

Your need to do some reading and have a think.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:50

I think your arguments are falling a bit flat, sparrow.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:49

@SardineQueenII What a weird tangent you've set off on. It has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I've said

OP posts:
SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:49

What lingerie does your husband wear to return the favour?

He deserves to feel sexy too. Get 'dolled up'. Or is that kenned up?

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:48

@SpartacusAutisticusAHF

Man Friday was about single-sex spaces being taken away from women. This is about trans people being able to buy the underwear they want to wear in sizes that actually fit them. There's no comparison.

OP posts:
SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:47

Proper women, whether they have penises or not, are way too busy feeling sexy in their lovely silky undies to be doing this sort of sign waving nonsense.

Those women aren't really real women much at all, are they.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:47

@SardineQueenII

I obviously don't think that. But I do buy into it enough that sometimes I like to buy 'sexy' underwear and get dolled up, and I enjoy that my husband appreciates it, even though I'm normally in comfy cotton pants and bras.

I don't really see why it's worse for trans women to do that than it is when I do it. You're right that there are general critiques of lingerie out there, but this action is clearly because the company is manufacturing products in trans sizes.

OP posts:
Whatisthisfuckery · 04/03/2019 21:46

OP, may I recommend reading Bunbury’s ‘how to feminist correctly,’ it’s very enlightening.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:46

I only feel like a real woman when I put my peephole bra on.

This is a standard experience for all all.

Even elderly ones.

We really feel like proper women when we get all wrapped up like a present.

The other important thing is mascara.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 21:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueenII · 04/03/2019 21:43

But being a woman is mostly about sexy underwear, isn't it?

Sexy underwear big hair lovely lipstick good high heels?

That's got to be 99% of what being a woman is all about.

That and self objectification for the male gaze.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:43

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

I'm also very pro-freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to criticise protests I disagree with. I'm not suggesting moral equivalence with this, but I wouldn't blindly support the EDL organising an anti-Muslim protest because of what happened in Rotherham.

@DpWm

Sure, I get that AGP is driving a lot of the push to erode certain protects and rights that women currently enjoy. My argument would be that it's the attempt to erode these rights that's the problem, not the fetish itself. I understand the arguments about pornification, women being expected to look a certain way and being reduced to sex objects, and can agree that a culture without that would be superior. Ultimately, though, I support every individual's right to wear lacy lingerie and feel sexy because of it, because what's the alternative?

I think maybe where I differ from some people on here is that I don't think being trans is purely a fetish, or a malicious attempt to overstep women's boundaries. I think people with genuine gender dysphoria are struggling and deserve to be treated with empathy. From this perspective, protesting a brand launching lingerie in their sizes just seems needlessly cruel.

OP posts:
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