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Original poster

How is this anything to do with furthering women's rights?

161 replies

SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 21:04

I'm sympathetic to many radfem arguments, but I can't for the life of me understand how opposing lacy lingerie being made to fit a wider range of bodies helps women.

Given that similar lingerie already exists in standard women's sizes, surely expanding that so it can fit anyone is only lessening gender constraints? How is trying to restrict it only to biological women helping anything?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/03/01/anti-trans-protest-over-pornographic-transgender-lingerie-fashion-show

OP posts:
SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 22:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 22:27

Men who get fulfilment of any kind from wearing underwear coded as 'female' in our culture are not 'marginalized'. What an odd conclusion.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:26

@PrestonsFlowers If getting posts deleted from a forum is a fun activity for you then you're welcome to go for it.

OP posts:
Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:25

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

No, I just think that for as long as gender persists then a marginalised group shouldn't be placed under special scrutiny and held to higher standards than everyone else. I admit I'm not optimistic about things changing anytime soon, but it's not because I'm happy with the status quo.

(Fair enough to everyone pointing it out, I won't use cis anymore. I find that or natal the easiest options to convey what I mean in a way everyone understands, but I've no desire to offend people)

OP posts:
FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 22:24

Are the women in question trying to stop the men wearing the underwear? Or are they protesting the misogyny that is at the root of it all?

PrestonsFlowers · 04/03/2019 22:24

Must learn to type faster

PrestonsFlowers · 04/03/2019 22:23

Op I was very tempted to report you every time you used c*s but the thread wouldn't make much sense.
And your increasing annoyance is really quite funny
Just read the guidelines

Trousering · 04/03/2019 22:23

My theory?

I don't live a theoretical life.

The only meaning they convey here is your subservience.

userschmoozer · 04/03/2019 22:22

@SparrowNest Mumsnet pinned a thread at the top of the FWR board, that lists the terms we can't use.
It is generally considered good manners to read the pinned threads and posting rules when you join a forum.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 04/03/2019 22:22

Sparrow, I agree with SpartacusAutisticusAHF that you're approaching this from a very different angle thsn a lot of feminists who feel inspired to protest. You've come to see certain aspects of the Gender critical argument, but you've not really engaged with the big picture. You're still happy for gender to continue to slope along, trapping people in it's tentacles. Others really aren't, and class analysis has a lot to do with that.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:22

@SpartacusAutisticusAHF I'm not an all choices are valid, nothing a woman chooses can be bad for women as a whole sort of feminist. I'm also a socialist.

I just don't thing targeting trans individuals is actually an appropriate response to any of the structural issues here. I don't think holding a subsection of people differently responsible for their consumption habits is a response based on class analysis. I do still believe that individual freedoms matter, though, and I know I'd find it deeply oppressive if someone attempted to restrict my freedom to choose what underwear I want to wear.

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 04/03/2019 22:19

Pinned post: www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

BettyDuMonde · 04/03/2019 22:18

You really aren’t a regular here, are you?

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:17

@BettyDuMonde I used spiteful to describe Sajid Javid on Facebook about a week ago. I use nasty all the time.

I can see this isn't going anywhere constructive, though. You're extremely unhappy that I've criticised the protest so you're going to retaliate by finding things to criticise me for.

@SpartacusAutisticusAHF cis is banned why, and by who?

OP posts:
Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:14

@Trousering I used cis/natal because I'm happy with either term, both are widely understood and accurately convey my meaning.

What's your theory?

OP posts:
SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 22:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BettyDuMonde · 04/03/2019 22:14

‘Spiteful’ and ‘nasty’ are rather loaded terms... and not generally ones aimed at men...

I think you might have a touch of the ol’ Internalised misogyny going on, OP.

Trousering · 04/03/2019 22:12

OP keeps using the cis word. I wonder why?

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:11

Ultimately, I think that people with gender dysphoria are struggling and deserve sympathy. I don't think the entire concept of trans is simply a fetish and a trick to overstep women's boundaries. I think this while having serious objections to many aspects of the current pro-trans agenda.

You're entitled to support whatever tactics you choose to pursue whatever your goals are, but I think the difference of opinion I describe above is why I think this protest seems spiteful and nasty, and many of you vehemently disagree.

OP posts:
McTufty · 04/03/2019 22:10

sparrow

I agree the trans community is marginalised and I am very open to respectful discussion about how best to resolve issues where women’s rights and trans rights collide. Such a stance gets me called a T**f so 🤷🏻‍♀️

This isn’t the issue I feel most strongly about personally but I understand why others do as it does seem like trans women reinforcing gender stereotypes and expectations to validate their own identity.

PrestonsFlowers · 04/03/2019 22:10

Anger op?
Do point it out

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 22:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 22:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SparrowNest · 04/03/2019 22:07

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious OK, but protesting exclusively against the single lingerie brand catering for trans people isn't a general protest against gender norms. It's specifically targeting trans people for something that doesn't directly affect anyone but those trans people themselves, and which I think has to come under the category of individual freedoms even if people make very strong critiques of the social conditions in which demand for the products arises.

OP posts:
PrestonsFlowers · 04/03/2019 22:07

I think op has decided that disagreement means attacking. Funny how some people always get those two mixed up