There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

You are still emphasising how you feel.

Women are responding to you without adding their emotions.

It isn't easy, there is no fix, law or convention that will allow a return to the blind acquiesence of yesteryear. Women will now always question the right, as in the moral right, of any male person to access female spaces.

Don't blame women. Don't argue with us that we have done something wrong. Have that discuss with other men, who could just as easily make room for you.

Or do as generations if women have done and work for your in space, without taking anything from women.

Harsh? Well, tough. As so many women have been told. Like female athletes, you just need to try harder!

And yes, I do appreciate just how entrenched I sound. A year ago I wouldn't have typed that...

Have all the other members been asked in a manner where they're free to answer their true feelings?

Actually they have and are asked every single time I attend.

I have put forward my position and the way I feel and am told once again how I am wrong. Assumptions have been made that arent correct but if I object I will be told I am disrespecting female boundaries.

So why are you not campaigning for that service to be available to males? Who says I am not ?

Have you considered appealing for a transgender session?
As it happens I have already written to the health authority.

Intersex conditions don't make someone trans, you using it here is another appeal to women's socialisation to be kind to you. Thats a hell of a leap. I am not appealing to anything merely stating facts and posing a question. You are assuming a motivation that isnt there.

This is why traditional transsexual people cant be on mumsnet. What gets focused on is the areas of dissent and never the common ground.

This thread is the single best thing I've ever read about all of this (and I read a lot of the threads here).

Thank you to all of you for posting-many more people read than post.

Personally though I do use a ladies gym, with permission and I do not feel this to be an issue, nor do any of the other members

How do you know this? Have all the other members been asked in a manner where they're free to answer their true feelings? Or have they been appealed to also?

I do think that there are situations where due to lack of any alternative some services should be made available with adaptation. For example a post operative trans woman that has been raped should not be told they must do without counselling because nothing is available for men

So why are you not campaigning for that service to be available to males? Why do you think that severely traumatised women should have to share a very necessary service to validate transgenderism? Using this as an example is another appeal to female socialisation.

Another example - breast screening is a woman only space. Should transsexual people be excluded from this space even though they are still at risk of contracting breast cancer

Men also develop breast cancer. There is no reason to have anyone other than women at breast screenings for the privacy and dignity of women attending. Have you considered appealing for a transgender session? Or a mixed session for those women who are allegedly happy to share with all and sundry, or do you think you should be able to make every session mixed sex?

It is black and white. Intersex conditions don't make someone trans, you using it here is another appeal to women's socialisation to be kind to you.

If you have a male body whatever hormones you take, whatever surgery you have you do not belong in any women's spaces or places. Arguing the grey area is a massive lack of respect for our boundaries. It is black and white. There is no grey area between male and female. Stop attempting to carve one out.

Whilst we separate into transsexual and transgender we continue to cede space to people who aren’t born female.

More than 99% of what I see in relation to womens spaces I am in absolute agreement over. I am not prepared though to commit to 100% because I believe there can be certain circumstances outside of the norm.

For example I do not use womens toilets nor do I use womens changing rooms and am in agreement here. These are spaces where this is a safety risk and there are always alternatives. I have already said I consider sports should be a blanket no to transgender women competing as women. You cannot deny physical differences between men and women that cannot be reversed.

Personally though I do use a ladies gym, with permission and I do not feel this to be an issue, nor do any of the other members (quite the opposite). The womens gym is intended as a safe space away from the testosterone fuelled and I share that need for a safe space - I am and have been a target for the "alpha male" just like many of the other women there.

Further whilst I do not beleive biological men should have access to womens refuges etc. nor ever be put in a position where any women could feel threatened, I do think that there are situations where due to lack of any alternative some services should be made available with adaptation. For example a post operative trans woman that has been raped should not be told they must do without counselling because nothing is available for men.

Another example - breast screening is a woman only space. Should transsexual people be excluded from this space even though they are still at risk of contracting breast cancer ?

There is always grey areas.

As I said before during my investigations prior to HRT I was found to have CAH - an intersex condition. Should that intersex condition be entirely ignored because my body at birth was essentially male ? Not all intersex conditions result in ambiguity over physical gender which was a surprise to me - how do we treat those people.

I would be genuinely interested in thoughts on this: having had an intersex diagnosis should I still continue to identify as transsexual or distance myself now from that ? I do have Gender Dysphoria but in my case its been found to have a cause - should that make a difference ? Should those with intersex conditions be treated the same way as transsexual people (and note intersex is under the transgender umbrella).

You can see why I dont think anything is ever black and white.

It horrified me that the rest is the rand population are sort of being erased out of the public arena and silenced by those with the "mermaids" agenda

I keep telling my DC that trans is an umbrella term and that narcissistic sector do not speak for all!

You are pushing me into saying something where there isnt a simple answer These days there is a simple answer though. The days of women acquiescing and looking the other way, no matter how uncomfortable they felt are coming to a close. MN is just at the forefront of that!

This is the space you can hear that message, answer it without the loaded emotional reaction to a face to face interaction and women can discus it with you and any/every other transowman who engages without the emotional blackmai, the play nice social interdict.

If you can hear There is no difference between the different kind of trans - this is a manipulative appeal to female socialisation and it stinks. and interact with that message without any additonal emotional appeal to femal socialisation then maybe we can all work together to work out what can and cannot be done to end this truly weird situation.

I think you'll find that this is what women have been asking for since all of this pratting about began!

"I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked." That's a shame. The way I see it, there's a lot of misunderstanding about the purpose of the feminism board. (I don't know if you mean the whole MN or just here?) When women on this board centre women and assert their existing right to sex-based services and spaces, I can understand why transsexuals might feel attacked. But: women's rights are currently under threat, and rights are not about feelings. We're in this mess precisely because feelings were prioritised over fact. So please don't feel that you're being attacked because you are transsexual, and please report inappropriate posts because discussion here is generally very civil, and we should keep it that way.
"Transsexual people are not the enemy." Of course not. I don't like the words "enemy" and "ally" anyway, they're meaningless in this debate. It's shocking how some transsexuals who don't toe the Stonewall line have been treated, but the "old-school TS vs new transgender" distinction is false. Some of the most influential people who are lobbying the government to remove single-sex exemptions from the Equality Act are transsexuals who have had a GRC for years.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission seems to be fully on board with erasing the term "transsexual". I'm not sure it can be reclaimed, but I think there would be a lot of public support for a transsexual-led campaign on retaining and reinforcing the gatekeeping process.

I'm don't like forcing people into a totalitarian position.

There are many issues where I hold an opinion but am prepared to recognise exceptions. I'm also prepared to agree to a utilitarian compromise.

Focus on common ground- eventually no one fully agrees with anyone else.

Good luck persuading the general public on that. A transwoman is a transwoman to most. I was very struck by Leanne Mills article on the cold hard reality and have the utmost respect for her views. Debbie Hayton as well, always calm and pragmatic. Those on the other hand acting like self righteous men will be treated as such however they 'identify'.

Oops, that was a cross post not directed at any particular poster transsexual.

And THIS is why transsexual people dont feel they can be on mumsnet. You are pushing me into saying something where there isnt a simple answer and then I'll get attacked and told that Im just like the rest and that I have an MRA agenda if you dont like my reply

It’s not a loaded question though. It’s a valid and important one. Women’s spaces are for women and girls - human females - not for people who think they have some inner feminine essence that makes them an honorary woman. You’re claiming to be an ally and then dodging an important issue clearly showing you’re someone who wants to be treated as special.

Whilst we separate into transsexual and transgender we continue to cede space to people who aren’t born female. There is no difference between the different kind of trans - this is a manipulative appeal to female socialisation and it stinks.

As far as I've seen MN is only unwelcoming to transsexuals if they insist on using women's facilities regardless of the potential impact on women. And even then they are often applauded for specific actions or opinions even if other actions and opinions are seen with caution e.g. Debbie Hayton. People like Fionne and MY as far as I have seen are very much admired. People who have completely opposite views are still on the whole welcomed and encouraged to debate but debate is rugged and there's no truck given for crying victimisation at every turn and refusing to answer the difficult questions.

*I am proud truscum and will happily stand with any women in protecting womens rights.

Including not using spaces or services intended for women, I presume?*

And THIS is why transsexual people dont feel they can be on mumsnet. You are pushing me into saying something where there isnt a simple answer and then I'll get attacked and told that Im just like the rest and that I have an MRA agenda if you dont like my reply.

So I am going to decline to answer such a loaded question.

@transsexualNOTtransgender has the right of it. I'm gutted that MN is unwelcoming to true TS people, the TRAs trample on everyone.

I've followed Kinesis for a while, along with the lovely Fionne Orlander, and they're both an oasis of sense in a desert of TRA bollocks.

I am proud truscum and will happily stand with any women in protecting womens rights.

Including not using spaces or services intended for women, I presume?

traditional transsexuals are one of the groups who have been totally trampled all over by the TRA

Traditional transsexuals have also been at the forefront of tra. Lots of transsexuals have been working hard to erase women's rights.

It's not black and white.

traditional transsexuals are one of the groups who have been totally trampled all over by the TRA

As a traditional transsexual I quite agree and my traditional TS friends would also agree !

This may be controversial but I see TRA/modern TG agenda as a common enemy of both women and transsexuals. I know some feel that TG and TS are still biologically male and therefore further distinction is irrelevant.

I think that (not using these terms to cause offence, but in desperate attempt for clarity) traditional transsexuals are one of the groups who have been totally trampled all over by the TRA activists. Along, of course, with lesbians, gay children, autistic children, and women.

I don't believe any of them are genuinely the opposite sex.

After I came out as transsexual I had a lot of blood testing in regards to HRT. I found out I have Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia .... I'm intersex even though my body is essentially Male.

My point is I had no clue I had the medical issue and always considered my issues to be entirely psychological.

I struggle now with figuring out what I am.

I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked. That is so fucking annoying!

Yes, I am probably one of the women who would no longer pretend not to notice a transwoman in a female space. Not your fault but it is a fucking shame that TRA behaviours have made this so much more of an Us vs Them 3-ring circus!

I want a TARDIS and I am taking the woke, all TRAs and MRA twats back to the 1980s... live through that and spout your shite successfully? Think not!

Don't know about quiet but Miranda Yardley's a cool individual.

I'm sure plenty of transsexuals/transgender people are genuine in the sense they genuinely have dysphoria or genuinely feel they have a gendered soul, even if they don't agree with my view that you can't change sex and gender is a bit all round pointless and confining. And plenty of transsexuals who do broadly agree with my views whether loudly or quietly.

I don't believe any of them are genuinely the opposite sex. I do believe all of them should live free from abuse and discrimination. I don't believe acknowledgement of biological reality constitutes abuse or discrimination.

And Rose of Dawn of course.

Seven Hex writes really well about all this. She's hoping to continue to gather momentum against the woolly trans TRA tide.

https://sevenhex.com/

Sorry you feel attacked transexual