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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

231 replies

andyoldlabour · 04/03/2019 08:46

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/03/2019 21:08

I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked.

So some TS people allegedl said they felt attacked?
Doesn't mean they were attacked, maybe women refused to comply? Maybe women disagreed strongly? Maybe none of that had any thing to do with what sex / gender identity etc they were.

Expectations and perceptions can be powerful particularly when rooted in sexed socialiation /based stereotypes.

Dec 2018 letter in the Times published by a group of transsexuals protesting the overreach and violent tactics by some trans activists is discussed on this illuminating thread, which revealed tensions within the group, the impossibilities of separating transsexuals from trans rights activists as well as some agendas very different to those initially claimed:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals

BickerinBrattle · 04/03/2019 20:45

did not go out on a “trans hunt.”

Oh MNHQ, so wish there was an edit function! Autocorrect sometimes so funky!

BickerinBrattle · 04/03/2019 20:42

Women did not ask for this fight. We did it go out on a “trans hunt.” We did not complain when a small number of transwomen were using our spaces, even though some of us may have felt discomfort or even threatened. We did what women are trained from birth to do: we accepted that the needs of males outweighed our own. No male is trained in similar fashion to put the needs of females above his own, as we see in all the appealing to us to understand where a particular male’s needs begin and end, compared to the absence of any male ever posting simply to ask: what can I do to help women?

The fight we did not ask for came to us. Suddenly we were talking about a population of males in women’s spaces several orders of magnitude larger than we’d before acquiesced to, along with far more intrusion into far more spaces: hospital rooms, ffs, or changing rooms at work where we’re now expected to strip down with male colleagues, or hostels where we’re expected somehow to sleep peacefully beside male strangers.

Meanwhile, they came for our children, advocating and grooming our kids into unconscionable medical experimentation.

Throughout all this, with rare exception, transexuals who might have made a difference years ago remained silent.

Now — now — that women are fighting back and beginning to turn the tide, now that women are saying that no males belong in our spaces, now that transing children is being recognised for the medical abuse that it is, some transsexuals are making special pleading that’s they are different and we’re never part of the malevolence women are now fighting.

But the principled time to speak up was years ago. Speaking up only now — we’ll, the word that comes to mind is: opportunism.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 04/03/2019 20:26

A gender neutral third space is probably the best option, with the proviso that sex-segregated spaces are retained alongside those third space to ensure the safety of children and women. yep, and transsexuals need to campaign alongside women for these. I'd be happy to campaign on this, the TRAs don't want this though, which tells you a lot about their motivations.

Miranda doesn't use womens spaces at all, no exceptions, because he's concluded that's the only logical and honourable thing to do, and has written eloquently and clearly about why this is. He is an example of a transsexual exhibiting genuine respect for Womens and girls boundaries of and empathy with women and girls.

Young girls, especially those going through puberty and starting menstruation, don't want to share with male bodied people, and I really don't see however many arguments are made why girls should have to give up their privacy, dignity and safety for transsexuals. As soon as you get into exceptions to single sex, that's what you're asking for.

SingeBuggerCack · 04/03/2019 20:22

Wow manipulation. I certainly dont see it. Maybe clumsily worded but we all know how dangerous a typed medium without knowing fhe person, their intent or their emotional response can be. Personally i give them the benefit of the doubt for now....

Once you start noticing the demands for women to be kind it becomes painfully obvious. And yes, it absolutely often is a manipulative attempt to use women’s socialisation against them. Even if it isn’t conscious. Women say no. End of.

Passtheknitting · 04/03/2019 20:19

I will agree to disagree. I dont think they got a fair hearing.

SwearyG · 04/03/2019 20:17

But TSnTG was asked a very simple question about alliance (I don’t want to call it that but brain on go slow) by Lang. She asked about their use of women’s spaces and TSnTG refused to answer. That’s not the action of an ally. They went on to explain the circumstances where they entered women’s spaces because they felt entitled. That’s not being an ally to women.

The friends who have been here before behaved In very similar ways. Expecting huge amounts of praise for not being horrendous humans, taking the piss out of us on angels whilst pretending to be friends, special pleading for their inclusion where all others should be left out, a refusal to accept the boundaries women have laid out, an insistence that they have permission/all women are comfortable with their presence. It played out in three posts on this thread.

LangCleg · 04/03/2019 20:14

It doesnt happen to anyone else.

You're very new to FWR. Perhaps you haven't been around long enough to notice the centring of women that goes on here?

Passtheknitting · 04/03/2019 20:14

Wow manipulation. I certainly dont see it. Maybe clumsily worded but we all know how dangerous a typed medium without knowing fhe person, their intent or their emotional response can be. Personally i give them the benefit of the doubt for now....

Passtheknitting · 04/03/2019 20:12

what is a genuine transgender person? How do you tell them apart from fake transgender people or people who accept their sex cannot change?

I get it and I agree you cant. But that doesnt mean I think they are all as bad as each other. Some do seem to want to be genuine allies and I want to hear what they have to say. Of course I dont want myself or my kids sharing a space with some entitled male with a fetish.

Honestly the way every word they said on here is being analysed seems strange. It doesnt happen to anyone else.

LangCleg · 04/03/2019 20:10

If you want them to speak lets at least hear what they have to say.

I did. Opening post contained manipulation.

Asked question.

Response contained outrage at perceived non-compliance and demands for me to perform female socialisation.

I know all I need to know from that, thanks.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SwearyG · 04/03/2019 20:06

Passtheknitting what is a genuine transgender person? How do you tell them apart from fake transgender people or people who accept their sex cannot change?

Passtheknitting · 04/03/2019 20:04

"How dare you tell women to be politer or nicer or less angry. This is enraging, we are allowed to be angry. I will not placate men who are part of a movement which is removing my rights.*

By all means be angry. But then noone gets to complain why genuine transgender people are being quiet. If you want them to speak lets at least hear what they have to say.

SingeBuggerCack · 04/03/2019 20:04

The very first thing TSNTG posted in this thread was a complaint about the women of Mumsnet not being friendly/welcoming/kind enough:

I was on Mumsnet a while ago as were several friends of mine but we all left because we felt attacked.

This is not okay. Perhaps they didn’t mean for it to sound so manipulative, but that’s exactly how it comes across.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 04/03/2019 20:04

It's not a pile on. This is a discussion board, not a hive mind. It's also a feminist board which means prioritising women and girls.

I totally get it, I've been very guilty of doing the same thing myself.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SwearyG · 04/03/2019 20:02

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on

TSnTG refused to respond to a reasonable question quite rudely early on, thus showing they aren’t interested in looking out for women’s rights. This is feminism chat not transgender rights chat so women’s rights are the important bit.

They then behaved like every other “I’m a transsexual, you can’t possibly mean little old me when you talk about trans rights activists” in trying to get women to validate their special status. It happens every time.

Autogynephiles get off on being accepted and validated by women. And too many have tried to seek that validation on FWR and then got manipulative when women say no or even ask questions.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/03/2019 20:01

According to the human rights commission

a service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment

So the ladies only gym above appears to be correct in treating a trans woman according to their acquired gender.

LangCleg · 04/03/2019 20:00

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on.

I asked a straightforward question and then observed the content and tone of the response before commenting further.

That sufficiently compliant for you?

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 04/03/2019 19:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 04/03/2019 19:57

They’re not being asked in a manner where they’re free to express their true feelings. They’re being asked to agree to a fait accompli.

When I see this nonsense, I always think - bet you a million squid no women were allowed an anonymous ballot about this.

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2019 19:57

Oops that moved faster than I read.

picklemepopcorn · 04/03/2019 19:56

It would be nice for the conversation to last a bit longer...

There's a tendency to behave as though the existence of transsexual people threatens women's rights. That's problematic.

Perhaps if you are suspicious of a trans person posting, you could sit back and wait a while before piling on.

LangCleg · 04/03/2019 19:55

I would have been interested to see that discussion go farther.

And the reason you didn't is because the very second non-compliance by women arrived to the thread, there was an explosion of outrage and demands for the performing of female socialisation.

Which is the bloody problem.

No is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation.

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