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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There are genuine transgender people - but they are quiet.

231 replies

andyoldlabour · 04/03/2019 08:46

I found this on KF, and it shows that there are transgender people with empathy, who do not agree with the way very masculine transgender people are treating women.
It came as a surprise to me, but also was very heartening.
If they were all like this person then there wouldn't be any problems, so it has confirmed my beliefs that certain people are not really transgender but using it for their own nefarious reasons.

twitter.com/kinesis/status/1062885504541110272

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R0wantrees · 08/03/2019 11:02

People don't have to be present to cause denial of experience silencing and isolation.
The dynamic of how others can unwittingly become enablers of this is important to understand.

(extract)
"Flying monkeys make the narcissist feel like they’re important and special. They help the narcissist feel like they’re grandiose, like they have high status, like they’re famous or a celebrity, which is what the narcissist wants to feel. Narcissists often have a whole entourage around them just like a celebrity needs an entourage in order to feel secure about themselves.

So who can become flying monkeys?

There are two different categories of people.

The first category is the naive.

The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.

This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.

These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding." (continues)
medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

TinselAngel · 08/03/2019 10:50

At least it's been a while since a transsexual has mansplained to me why I'm wrong on one of these threads, so maybe that much progress has been made!

R0wantrees · 08/03/2019 10:35

TinselAngel Hopefully more women will listen.

Otherwise we are colluding in the silencing and isolation of women who have experienced so much of this already.

TinselAngel · 08/03/2019 10:31

Thanks R0. I guess all I can do is keep on saying it. Hmm

R0wantrees · 08/03/2019 10:29

For goodness sake, why are these threads still continuing without the first question asked of the friendly transsexual being "Do you have a female partner, or did you have at the time of your transition, and if so can we hear from her please as this is her space, not yours?".

Its International Women's Day, Tinsel has made this important point on many threads.

Supporting and respecting those women who post their experiences on the 'transwidows' threads needs to extend throughout the FWR board, not just a single thread.

Flowers
TinselAngel · 07/03/2019 12:02

For goodness sake, why are these threads still continuing without the first question asked of the friendly transsexual being "Do you have a female partner, or did you have at the time of your transition, and if so can we hear from her please as this is her space, not yours?".

sackrifice · 05/03/2019 20:36

I kept my legs crossed till I got home...

And what happens when you retain urine for too long?

Lettera · 05/03/2019 20:09

Went out for lunch with my daughter and her partner this weekend to a 'hipster' cafe in Manchester. She went to the loo and reported that they were mixed - urinals and cubicles together. I kept my legs crossed till I got home...

sackrifice · 05/03/2019 20:01

Any and all actions by TRAs which limit the effectiveness of gyny cancer awareness and early detection will have an impact on women's lives and it will likely be women who are vulnerable affected.

Exactly.

Just because a trans woman is not actually videoing, assaulting, committing GBH, ABH, raping or murdering does not mean that women are not being 'hurt' by their presence.

R0wantrees · 05/03/2019 19:53

We don't know. if one woman who does have cancer, is delaying going for a smear because of this, then one woman may get hurt because the NHS is letting trans women basically loose on giving smears to women if they identify as women

The CRUK information for 'people with cervixes' to have will impact women who don't know they have a cervix, know where it is, have limited literacy / english language skills.
This is at a time when there is a decline in women having the tests.

Gyny cancer awareness needs to be direct, straight talking and tests made as accessible as is possible.

Just as smear tests need to be as accessible as possible.

UK gyny cancer rates are not great and awareness and catching diseases early are both really important parts of improving outcomes.

Any and all actions by TRAs which limit the effectiveness of gyny cancer awareness and early detection will have an impact on women's lives and it will likely be women who are vulnerable affected.

Its Ovarian Cancer awareness month btw & cervical smear tests do not test for this so important to be aware of possible early symptoms eveappeal.org.uk/

sackrifice · 05/03/2019 19:36

For example Smears.

We don't know how many women's fears of smears have been heightened after the report of a woman being confronted by a trans woman there to take her smear.

We don't know. if one woman who does have cancer, is delaying going for a smear because of this, then one woman may get hurt because the NHS is letting trans women basically loose on giving smears to women if they identify as women.

This is why the GRA should be repealed. It isn't needed for the purpose it was originally intended for [to allow same sex marriage], so get rid. It should have been ditched the day after same sex marriage was legal.

sackrifice · 05/03/2019 19:24

I saw that interview on 'this morning' with the trans lady, saying we should let trans people into these spaces because they're already there and not causing harm

Just coming back to this point, as I've literally just got in from a long 2 days away...

How does the trans lady know how many women don't now go to women's spaces, because of the trans lady being there; and thus putting their physical health, mental health or anything else at risk?

We know it was all part of the plan, to take over women's group by women's group; to isolate and break down these groups to be all about the trans. It's in the manifestos. So how anyone can say 'they aren't hurting anyone' is a mystery to me. As soon as one woman or girl doesn't attend a support group because the group is not female only, a woman or girl is potentially hurt in some way.

BickerinBrattle · 05/03/2019 18:36

I think the reason men push TW onto women doesn’t arise out of homophobia per se but out of something much more primitive: their own castration anxiety.

Which, at base, is misogyny.

theOtherPamAyres · 05/03/2019 18:29

The real answer lies in men making spaces for effeminate men and men who dress like women. Deal with your deep-rooted homophobia, chaps, and make your single-sex spaces safer.

Whenever I get abuse on Twitter from men who tell me that I am literally killing transwomen by refusing to accommodate them, my reply is always along the lines of:

"They are uncomfortable around men. They want protection from men. It's up to men do something about that, not women. Your responsibility, not mine."

Lettera · 05/03/2019 18:17

What happened to Bewilderness? She was around when I first discovered Mumsnet FWR. I miss her too.

terryleather · 05/03/2019 17:56

But if you won't abide any woman ever speaking in a way that challenges your Inner Beryl, you will remain a slave to your Inner Beryl forever.

This is very true.

And I also miss TheBewilderness

  • a real loss to FWR.
BettyDuMonde · 05/03/2019 17:52

It’s not so much what transpeople want, it’s more that that’s what businesses/universities/authorities will do, because they daren’t risk the lawsuits/bullying campaigns that attempting to maintain strict sex segregated spaces will bring on top of them.

All gender neutral everything is the unintended end point, basically.

TescoValue · 05/03/2019 17:32

Why would trans people even want that? Surely that puts them at risk too. They'll never be able to walk away from abuse either. I don't understand why anyone would think this is an inclusive good idea. It's not at all.
I hate the argument "trans people are already in these spaces, we just want to campaign to make it everywhere for everyone". What a horrible idea.

Short of one of us throwing ourselves in front of a horse (again) what can we do? Ms Pankhurst didn't die for this Shock

DoctoressPlague · 05/03/2019 17:30

If someone wants to start a campaign for safe spaces for trans people, crack on, but people don't have infinite time and resources. How about getting men to lead the safe spaces campaign, so women can focus on the women's rights side of the equation?

BettyDuMonde · 05/03/2019 17:24

Now imagine that ALL the nightclub toilets are made gender neutral and EVERY man in the place can just follow us straight in.

Fuck that shit.

TescoValue · 05/03/2019 17:19

You're all saying exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't find the words exactly. This is the first time I've really thought about it and you're right, it's recognition of the fact that actually we aren't safe really are we. If trans people aren't fighting for spaces of their own then the question is why do they want to be in our spaces? Without being rude, it seems there's an alterior motive doesn't it. I'd personally still like single sex spaces.
If I'm in a nightclub and want to get away from a creepy bloke, and go to the loos (we all know that's where we go) can't some bloke just say he's trans and waltz right in, then no one can say anything because then they're being offensive!?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 05/03/2019 17:09

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people?

Yes, but to be any use to women and girls it needs to run along a campaign to ensure that women's spaces are single sex.

R0wantrees · 05/03/2019 16:59

Transactivists are furious if you acknowledge male pattern behaviour or male pattern violence.

Many Men's Rights activists also try to prevent descriptions of male-pattern violence and abuse.
Its very important that its named and described. Prevention denies the opportunity to discuss and deal with what are escalating levels of sexual abuse, coercive control and DV.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 05/03/2019 16:52

It's absolutely not the fear of trans people, it's the fear of the unknown, anyone could be in there and have the right to be there too.

Tesco welcome - yes, and also the thing I hate is the lying, so M&S for example now have mixed sex, single 'gender' changing rooms but the label on the door still says women and men. Which I'm betting most of the M&S customers think means single sex. Especially as there are still only 2 - and I'm reliably informed that there are 70+ 'genders'.

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people? All the women I know would be on board with that, I'm sure none of us want to segregate anyone but that doesn't mean we want our rights trampled on. I just don't understand it!

I'd campaign for that too (or for more unisex floor to ceiling cubicles etc) but I'm afraid my conclusion about this is that the TRA agenda is actually all about removing safe spaces from women and girls. TRAs seem almost universally unhappy with the idea that they wouldn't be able to use single sex spaces, even if they had separate third spaces to use. Which tells you a lot about their motivations.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 05/03/2019 16:45

Can't we all campaign for safe spaces for trans people?

Stonewall could do that in a heartbeat. They have the money and the influence. They just don’t want to.