The cotton ceiling for gay men

And on front holes and women's biology... I just can't even.. gry]

Utterly appalling and degrading in every way. I am disgusted. Obtaining sex by deception is totally immoral and illegal. Its an obligation to disclose before every time, not at your discretion. I barely have the words. There's a helpline apparently if it goes a bit wrong. Is there also a helpline for people who have been abused by such a deception? How much help would 999 be?.

And the photos.. bloody hell. Telling that is it the two (quite obvious) females that are kissing, but down in their knees BDSM style for what appears to be the male. FFS.

It becomes more clear to me that for some people that biological sex/ sexual orientation does not matter much if what they are after is a sexual thrill from dominating or abusing any human who they can objectify and dehumanise or project onto, (much like men who rape men in prison perhaps). Or those who want to be abused.

That's a very different concept from 'you love who you love'. There is no love in this leaflet, just abusive paraphilia. Its sickening.

Good point, nauticant

It does seem that every day in every way females, both juvenile and adult, are being encouraged and/or told they have no choice but to set themselves up to be violated.

Just to be clear, it's part of the same Venn diagram as heterosexual sexually abusive men identifying as transwomen and going after lesbians.

I've just had a really horrible thought. What happens when heterosexual sexually abusive men start identifying as gay on dating apps and go after transmen?

You'll notice that the datalounge thread was shut down at only 62 replies. They have much more freedom of expression than MN but the moderators there close trans threads a lot. I think it's quite something that an article about happenings in a gay sauna isn't allowed to be commented on at length.

That datalounge reply 22
*
Can you imagine saying that on here?*

Not if you want to stay on the forum. Speaks some truth though. 🤯

That datalounge reply 22

Can you imagine saying that on here?

Deciding if and when to tell people you are trans can be tricky. Some guys might not tell their sex partners. Others might tell them straight away. Some of us might not have a choice based on our identity, presentation or stage of transition. It helps to work out what feels right for you.

I don't think that's sooo terrible TBH. To me it implies that you should be honest, even if you pass, which you probably don't.

Seriously? There's no implication that honesty is a component of enthusiastic consent there at all. Deciding if you're going to tell a gay man that you are not a male before engaging in sex with him based on what 'feels right for you'?

I mean, from a feminist perspective, my concern there is the danger a woman would be putting herself in through deliberate deception, but on a broader level, I am appalled that anyone would think this kind of grossly unethical advice was appropriate on any level. It's endorsing deception. No two ways about it, and a trans person was prosecuted for this kind of behaviour not so long ago.

Lurky

Yes I thought the advice re consent was very clear and in an ideal world sensible.
Unfortunately if you reference a current thread about getting a rape case prosecuted I can't help but think it may give a false sense of security re:
a. That consent will be respected and
b. That appropriate help will be available if it all goes horribly wrong.

It's frankly a bit blasé about "if something goes wrong" or "If you feel that you were forced"

Also, revisiting those photos. Well they just feel all sorts of wrong. One in particular looks like the very definition of "feeling something is wrong....forced".

But apart from that there does appear to be information that is likely to meet the needs of the target audience.
Q

Well this looks like a glossy and authoratative booklet to help transmen in navigating gay sex.

This booklet uses the term front hole to describe the vagina. Cock to refers to the clitoris or the results of lower surgery (usually metoidoplasty or phalloplasty). Cock can also refers to the penis that our partners were born with.

Words lose their meaning again.

Wetter is better: Using lots of lube can feel great. Our own front hole lubrication can be reduced if we’re taking T. So we might need more lube than we did before we started hormones Sex in front hole = penis or something else in vagina. Words lose their meaning again.

T can increase your appetite, muscle mass, sex drive. It can cause your cock to grow larger and become more sensitive It's not a cock, it's an enlarged clitoris. Be who you are, have sex with who you want, but why do you need to change words? Words lose their meaning again.

This takes the reader down a rabbit hole that's so confused that I don't think anyone could unpick it!

So, it's a resource for females (ah, go on then, I'll say 'people assigned female at birth) who identify more with the male body/born in the wrong body,, choose to take hormones (or not) and wish to have sex with gay males (though if the males choose to have sex with transmen who have female bodies, whether or not they've chosen to take hormones, are they gay? According to the new world, they are, cos gender identity trumps biological reality).

I'd be a bit fucked off as a gay biological man to have my reality appropriated by this glossy resource.

But as a gay man socialised as male, it probably won't bother me too much because, meh, whatever. You transmen with your enlarged cocks(clitori) get on with your front hole lubrication and all.

Deciding if and when to tell people you are trans can be tricky. Some guys might not tell their sex partners. Others might tell them straight away. Some of us might not have a choice based on our identity, presentation or stage of transition. It helps to work out what feels right for you.

I don't think that's sooo terrible TBH. To me it implies that you should be honest, even if you pass, which you probably don't.

So, do you think the bit about deceiving gay men, is helpful IShouldBeSoLurky? Is it ok for female bodied person to pretend to have a male body, in order to deceive gay men. I remember a time when pretending to be someone you aren’t, in order to deceive a gay or lesbian person would have been considered homophobic. Is that no longer the case?

I read that guide and I thought it was kind and helpful TBH, even if it was a bit laissez faire about some pretty risky behaviour. There was LOTS in it about consent and how it's okay to decline sex with someone if you don't fancy it/them, for whatever reason. It was also pretty clear about specifying on an OLD/hook-up profile that you're trans.

Ds1 is gay

He said some of this ' you are transphobic if you have a genital choice'is beginning to filter down

I love that boy more than life

I'm gonna be pissed if this causes a problem for him

I do how ever, firmly believe that you love who you love

find the photos really shocking and sad , looks like a masculine gay guy getting bj's and otherwise dominating "gay" trans men.

Yes, I thought that about the photos as well. Knowing those 'men' are female, the photos are kind of..... uncomfortable.

And the thing is, with the rise in ROGD amongst young women, there is going to be more and more of this (I don't know what the percentages of transmen are straight/gay is) and there will be more and more young women putting themselves into risky situations in order to try and 'be men'.

Ova. I also suspect there will be more gay/bi men who are okay with sex with an ftm under anonymous/cruising circumstances than lesbians are within their dating circles

From that outline link it seems Jamie chooses dark steamy rooms and backless pants. Need I say more.

I do find it sad though. Obviously it's way out of my sexual experience or indeed what I would ever consent to but I can't help feeling Jamie just gets off on the validation. I can't see what else there is in that sort of experience. But hey ho. Just park me in the bay marked "prude". No need for re-education.

I remember reading a blog post a few months back around the same time that I heard about the cotton ceiling by a transman that was about “vagiphobia” so it does exist but like pp have said, I can’t see it ending well for someone with a female body who tries tricking someone with a male body. Can’t remember much about it so can’t provide a link, sorry.

It was actually a different thread I was thinking of. Can't remember the title though - I guess maybe it is starting to become a more pressing issue in the gay male community if these articles are becoming more commonplace.

Here's a link to the data lounge thread. Not for the faint hearted.
Reply 7 made me laugh though, crude as it is.
On a serious note I really worry for these young women convincing themselves they are gay guys and heading off to male saunas in search of sex. I really can't think of many more risky behaviours and yet they seem to be oblivious.

https://www.datalounge.com/thread/22392276-trans-man-kicked-out-of-london-gay-sauna-for-not-having-a-penis

I don't think there is the same pressure (yet) because culture still defines men as the pursuers of sex, so to some extent they still get to pick and choose and socialisation means ftm's are unlikely to exert the same pressure as mtf's do towards lesbians.

If you view these things as a biological hierarchy rather than through the gender prism gay men still have the upper hand here.

I also suspect there will be more gay/bi men who are okay with sex with an ftm under anonymous/cruising circumstances than lesbians are within their dating circles because of the general difference in attitudes towards sex between men and women.

However I don't think many would be okay with deception even if they would have given the person a chance upon knowing the truth.

Well. That guide has been very enlightening. In a bad way.
I find the photos really shocking and sad , looks like a masculine gay guy getting bj's and otherwise dominating "gay" trans men. ie confused women who as far as one can judge from the pictures might otherwise be heterosexual women or lesbians. Mind I'm feeling a bit confused now too. What with front holes and cocks. (It helpfully points out cocks might be the real deal or they might be the gay guys clitoris, enlarged or not. Christ can we just go back to biology like we used to know it.