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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conflicted

70 replies

DemisRoussoss · 01/03/2019 23:28

Hi!

I’m a bit confused/conflicted about something that’s just come up.

I have been GC for about a year, and am falling down various rabbit holes.

Anyway, I work with vulnerable people and as part of my work I try to introduce my clients to social connections/opportunities within the local community.

Anyway (again), a local community enterprise group consists of a women’s group, and I’ve supported my client to get to these groups.

The volunteer ‘leader’ of the women’s group is obviously (to me) a mtf man. I don’t know how far they are into their transition, but I can tell. I genuinely don’t know if this is because there’s no natal woman who wants to do it, or what.

It occurred to me that my wearing a ‘woman’ t shirt could hurt their feelings, and I don’t want to do that.

Anyway, I just wondered how to square my gc self with my compassionate, accepting self?

OP posts:
DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 13:20

LangCleg, thanks for explaining my job and missing my later post about the t shirt as a metaphor.

OP posts:
DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 13:17

Datun - thanks for repeating what I just said! Smile

OP posts:
OldCrone · 02/03/2019 13:13

The volunteer ‘leader’ of the women’s group is obviously (to me) a mtf man.

This is one of the problems with the secrecy in this area. This person hasn't been introduced as 'trans', but as a woman. Nobody is being given a choice about whether a male born person, who may still have a penis, is an appropriate choice of leader for a support group for vulnerable women.

One of the examples in the Equality Act of an appropriate use of the exemptions for single sex services is a similar support group, and this is what could be applied here. But if nobody can actually mention whether or not someone is actually trans, how can the EA exemption be applied? This is why the EA is not fit for purpose as far as the PC of gender reassignment is concerned.

LangCleg · 02/03/2019 13:00

If you're working with vulnerable women, OP, I suggest you mug up on reflective practice and worry more about where and how you signpost them and less about your t-shirts.

Datun · 02/03/2019 12:54

DemisRoussoss

Perhaps your opening post wasn't particularly clear. It did appear as though the T-shirt featured rather heavily.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 02/03/2019 12:36

It's possible the OP has experienced so much gaslighting / coercive control on this issue that they don't see the elephant in the room and has fixated on the t-shirt as a way of expressing their natural gut instinct screaming 'this isn't right'.

The elephant in the room is of course that someone who is biologically male who is running a women's group for vulnerable women is throwing up so many Safeguarding red flags they could start a red flag bunting company. And showing a shockingly unfeminine lack of empathy for the feelings and safety of the vulnerable women involved too.

The analogy about a white man who id's as black running a group for vulnerable BME is excellent.

DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 12:19

Sorry - the issue isn’t about wearing my opinion on a t shirt; I worded that wrongly, it was more of a metaphor.

I see that some of you think I’m a TRA looking for something to take back somewhere - I absolutely am not.

I am, however, a feminist who has just begun to explore the trans issue because of the proposed gender recognition act. I have become gender critical in the last year and I understand why some are defensive.

I didn’t word my op in the way I meant, I don’t think. I’m not a newbie to MN - I have met many wonderful women here.

OP posts:
HappyPunky · 02/03/2019 11:52

Old Crones example describes my discomfort exactly.

If the thread is potentially a target for screen shots, we're women who centre women and we're prioritising vulnerable women in our answers. What do they expect?!

Datun · 02/03/2019 11:38

I've just re-read the OP and I'm a little more irritated, to be honest.

Framing the transwomen as being in a position that gender critical feminists would disagree with in the first place?

Then framing a feminist T-shirt as a passive/aggressive means of objecting to it.

Because the OP is assuming that objection to this transwoman is a gimmee, but avoiding them, talking to them or making a complaint isn't an option.

Only a fucking T-shirt

But then deciding the T-shirt would hurt their feelings, so 'what can I possibly do about it?'

Oh I know, I'll go on mumsnet, because I'm incapable of making one of the most insignificant decisions of all time

WeRiseUp · 02/03/2019 11:25

(Not quite sure what sort of comment/screenshot the OP is expecting?*
I think op presumed we'd all be caricatures - easy to bait. The responses were all a bit too practical in the end.

Datun · 02/03/2019 11:21

It reminds me of a pineapple upside down cake I once made. It fell apart as soon as you poked it with a fork.

Indeed.

It all sounds very unlikely to me. And very convoluted. Not quite sure what sort of comment/screenshot the OP is expecting?

andyoldlabour · 02/03/2019 11:18

A MtF heading up a women's group already strikes me as "appropriation" of a place which should be filled by a woman, so I don't think the OP is simply dealing with an "innocent" transgender person here.

bluescreen · 02/03/2019 10:45

Just remembered the real befrocked Demis Roussos's nickname.
Shock
cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/aade45abdcd57e336335413b5e6103ca

OldCrone · 02/03/2019 10:34

I agree with Pp that this is an aggressive act by infiltrating a women's group and actually accepting a position as leader. I would not be happy with this at all.

I agree with this. TRAs sometimes say to replace 'trans' with 'black'' and see how it sounds. If a support group for vulnerable BAME people was run by a white man who identified as black, how would you feel about him and referring vulnerable people to the group he was in charge of?

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 02/03/2019 10:20
Hmm
ProfessionalBarren · 02/03/2019 10:07

Sounds a bit like screenshot-fodder does a bit doesn’t it? Would be a shame if sensible comments were taken out of context.

sackrifice · 02/03/2019 10:04

Nobody would genuinely wear that t-shirt to work, AND have the misfortune of having a women's group that they have to refer to that is run by a trans woman, surely?

I mean, the very coincidence of those two things AND you being 'conflicted'.

It reminds me of a pineapple upside down cake I once made. It fell apart as soon as you poked it with a fork.

LimeKiwi · 02/03/2019 09:55

Exactly what @FunkyFunkyBeat12 said.

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 02/03/2019 09:50

I would agree not to wear the t.shirt in a work situation purely as I don't want you to get into trouble - it shouldn't be offensive, as it is clearly not, but I would be worried you would get hauled over the coals.

I agree with Pp that this is an aggressive act by infiltrating a women's group and actually accepting a position as leader. I would not be happy with this at all.

Barracker · 02/03/2019 09:46

I'm inclined to agree.
DemisRoussoss you will be attending the group WITH your client?

HappyPunky · 02/03/2019 09:42

I've worked with vulnerable people in the past and thought it was standard practice that you don't wear slogans and logos.

I wouldn't feel that I would be able to direct vulnerable women to a women's group led by a TW.

There are groups that are primarily female that don't exclude males but would be handy for validation purposes and I would feel more trusting of a TW who preferred to use these groups. I'm thinking book clubs and knitting clubs. You might get a couple of men but these sorts of groups are female led.

youllhavehadyourtea · 02/03/2019 09:39

FFB12 -agree with you.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 02/03/2019 09:37

Well yes the whole scenario about taking a vulnerable person to this group in the first place sounds a bit strange. As in ‘I want to introduce a vulnerable client to a women’s group led by someone who is very obviously male but I don’t know whether I should wear my t-shirt that states that I don’t think men can be women’. Sounds a bit like screenshot-fodder.

LangCleg · 02/03/2019 09:33

There is a power relationship between you and your vulnerable client. Have you considered that your introducing them into this group gives that group and it's male leader ?credibility/status/authority? in the vulnerable person's eyes? That you may be overriding their boundaries, and they might not be able to express any disquiet they may have?

This.

OP - I wonder whether some reflective practice on your own part might be higher up the priority list than whether or not to wear the t-shirt?

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/03/2019 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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