new (to me) trans twitter @rhysmckavanagh

Oh yes let’s absolutely do that then. Not.

We currently have a middle ground. GRCs.

Only other 'middle ground' would be women giving up their rights to please TRA/MRAs'

A man who throws on a dress - or not even that - and says ‘I am literally a woman’ can’t wander into women’s loos, shelters, wards etc (or can they because this does happen). Their rights in this respect is gained by bullying, threats and backing by fools with money/power.

Would they be complaining about ‘rights’ if it was the good old days when woman didn’t have the right to vice, own property, marital rape wasn’t a thing, you foul the get contraception/abortion without your man’s approval... etc etc etc

‘Give me a tenner’
No
‘Go on give me a tenner’
‘No’
‘Ok then give me a fiver’
‘No’
‘Don’t be so unreasonable- I’ve agreed to meet you half way’

What rights do trans people lack that everyone else has?

I agree that it’s a male problem and they can get together and deal with it.

Although if that solution is third spaces, that’s fine by me. They can go ahead and campaign and somehow fund them. But I strongly suspect Trans women wouldn’t like that one bit.

Nope. Women are women. Transwomen are not women. Never have been and never will be.

I am not willing to relinquish sex-based protections.

My definition of compromise (because we are all entitled to our own definitions now, right?) is "the solution that just about nobody wanted".

We are already the wrong side of compromise. Look where giving an inch here and there has got us.

Always remember that the ideology underpinning trans is a men's sexual rights movement. They are not going to compromise. Nothing gets in the way of men's sexual gratification.

Why are you asking women to compromise? Compromising is what got us here, to this point, only now we finally see just what the consequences of our compromise are.

Our language proscribed.

Our spaces occupied.

Our lived experiences as female-bodied people in a male-dominated world - already undervalued in our patriarchal society - further denigrated by framing any reference to women's issues as exclusionary and bigoted.

Lesbian culture, spaces, places, media - almost entirely gone.

Our sports - currently being colonised by men.

Can you not see that the fact that we can no longer legally have anything that is women-only without having to justify that this is a proportionate means to a legitimate end, is already a compromise too far?

Deaf people aren't asked to justify why they don't include hearing people, campaign groups for the rights of the windrush generation don't have to justify excluding those that emigrated to Britain in 2010. They all might point you in the right direction, but they dont have to move over for others.

No, the time for compromise is over.

I agree with Rhys. His position seems to be:

1. Biology is real (controversial I know).
2. The TRA position is vile and dangerous.
3. Gender dysphoria is real (like many on here he thinks sex stereotypes are a big cause).
4. Sometimes transition is the only treatment that works for GD, but it's an adult choice in extremis.
5. Transsexuals need a place in the world, just not at a cost of women's rights.
6. Yaaaayyy Brexit.

Well, to be precise I agree with him about 5/6ths of the way.

You agree, OP, that it's men's problem to solve. So riddle me this: why aren't you out and about on men's boards exhorting them to solve it?

Compromise already occurred in the original 2004GRA
Much further compromise occurred in the 2010 EA

There isn't really any where else to compromise.

Compromising and nuance* is what got us where we are.

A boundary is a boundary and no is a complete sentence.

You agree, OP, that it's men's problem to solve. So riddle me this: why aren't you out and about on men's boards exhorting them to solve it?

We've had this conversation a million times already. Human beings can't change sex and women have rights, earned through the blood, sweat and tears of our foremothers.

*nuance is rapidly becoming my least favourite word. It's only ever used by people telling women to budge up. I would prefer never to read it again.

Please believe me I never lose sight of the people who may end up as collateral damage in all of this. It just seems it's difficult enough to fight our own corner so I'm happy to be an ally I really don't feel able to accept responsibility for finding a solution .

Yes there should be some compromise. But not from women.

I liked how this man put it

“My own view is women should not have to cede a single fucking millimetre of ground, when it comes to their rights. Women’s rights still need moving forward, not backward. It is outrageous that this is even being proposed in the first place

I think this is men’s problem. We’re why there are single sex spaces in the first place. We’re why some transwomen don’t feel safe in men’s spaces. Yet we are not being asked to give up anything, change anything – not even the way we think. NOTHING.

There needs to be another way, and it’s going to have to come out of men’s resources. Whether its third spaces, ‘open’ sports events etc I don’t know. But we need to talk about it. Calmly and rationally. Mainly, we need to fix why men are a threat to both women and transwomen“

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1076276617041854464.html

Yes I basically think men should deal with it. But if they won't we are going to be stuck with it one way or another.

Are you saying that if men won't deal with it then we'll have to? No to that. If men can't deal with gender-non-conforming men, that doesn't make it women's problem to solve. We have to keep saying no.

On the issue of being nice......
I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect until they give me a reason not to. It's how I would like to be treated. I tend not to treat people nicely with the intention of manipulating them. I think it is disrespectful to push other people's boundaries if they would not knowingly and with good grace honour a request. Generally I try to communicate my wants and needs clearly and accept the answer I'm given.

I love Sophy Croft too!

And yes I know what you mean, but I’m past the stage where I believe compromise is possible; there are too many bad actors who will regard a compromise as an opportunity to erode boundaries. There are people in the world who will always find a way to make you regret being nice to them.

OP once upon a time I would have agreed with you but I've reached a point where I feel so aggrieved at the injustice of the way women are currently being treated in this debate that I'm working hard to resist the temptation to say we need to repeal the original GRA.

I believe that gender dysphoria exists and I do have great sympathy for the people affected by this condition but I'm afraid I'm not prepared to see women's rights legislated away to accommodate them.

Many years ago I supported an ex partner through transition. I didn't think it was a big deal and I was glad that they felt more comfortable after transition. They always treated me with kindness, consideration and respect. I have never been anti trans.

Initially I thought that the problems were being caused by a small number of aggressively vocal activists, whilst I think it is true that they may be small in number they are loud and incredibly influential. I can scarcely believe the silencing of anyone that has the temerity to question the new gender orthodoxy. The level of aggression and violence on display gives me no confidence that any kind of middle ground can be negotiated. It seems to be their way or die in fire? Sadly our politicians seem to agree.

So on the question of compromise, it's a no from me.

Like AnyOldPrion said, we've been in the middle ground since 2004 and looks what's happening now!

Sounds reasonable to me OP