Boy, 12, raped six-year-old sister ‘to recreate Grand Theft Auto scene’, court told

GoldenWonderwall my bad. Apologies for misunderstanding.

mamoon I was commenting on the post above not yours. I don’t tend to engage in internet whataboutery and straw men so I would not do that, I just felt the point was getting lost in picking at specifics rather than the general sense.

swings I am so sorry you’ve had this happen. It’s appalling and there are no words. I don’t understand the level of denial a parent has to be in to try and hand wave this stuff away. I’m glad you don’t have to listen to it anymore

I love GTA, but there is no way a child should be playing it!! It’s not as if there isn’t a shortage of video games that are age appropriate out there, and very good to boot. If there is a crucial discussion to be had around video games (and around screen time in general) is how often are we using tech to babysit our children?

I mean I have the odd off day and I’ll park my little one in front of something when I’m sick. However what children are most in need of is quality engagement with their caregivers to learn appropriate socialisation.

Although I’m an avid gamer my son (6) has only been allowed a little video gaming, and from a monitored and curated list. It’s also something I do with him more than something to keep him occupied because I can’t be bothered. I think that’s the real problem here.

To turn this problem on its head video games CAN be used as a positive force. I was playing a toys to life game with my son and evidently some other “cool” boy at his school had been spouting nonsense about girls. I had just so happened to have selected a female character which my son asked why had I done that as “girls aren’t as good”. So obviously I was able to have a conversation with him to get to the bottom of it and correct it.

The mother hopes for the boy to live in the family home? So the little girl will have to live under the same roof as her rapist?

Everything seems so centred around the rapist, his victim just expected to put on a brave face and go along with what 's best for the boy. No wonder she thinks it's her fault.

And - exactly as others have said - the full extent of the damage didn't manifest until my 30s. These parents have no idea how this little girl is going to affected long-term.

Poor girl

This happened to me, back in the 80s long before GTA and online porn.

I'm a research student now, currently studying families where this kind of abuse occurs. There are a number of known risk factors for it. As pp have said, it's often down to lack of supervision and generally a sign of dysfunction in the parental unit being passed down.

In my case a lot of it was down to sex discrimination - my father is a ragining mysoginist (so is my mother actually) and my brother was always the boy king.

My father was a bit of a sex pest himself, but my mother was almost Victorian in her prudishness, and those two extremes are risk factors as well.

Throw in some alcohol abuse and a mother who is so scarred by her own chilldhood experiences she can't be emotionally available to her children and voila, the perfect storm.

That's not to say all those factors are there in every case. But that's how it happened to me.

My parents STILL claim it can't have been that bad or I must be mental and a million other things. Luckily I don't see them anymore so I don't have to listen to it.

I agree that the judge and legal profession have a lot to answer for here in allowing this as any kind of defence. At 12 and at 6 there can be no doubt that the safety of these children lay with the parents. Now the 12 year old has transitioned into a person who has committed the darkest of acts, he cannot be trusted ever again. He willl be more dangerous at 18 and at 30 and a lifetime of policing will be needed to protect society from him (unlikely this will happen).
A little girl is the victim here, she has a life sentence which will probably go unsupported as well.
I think this bolstered my argument about adult who are complicit in the abuse of children being held responsible. No one can say that the parents were at the very least not taking care of their children when this happened. I might not be in the room with my children every minute of the day but I know what they are doing and I know when the mood changes. Yes this boys deserves blame and punishment but maybe a sentence for the parents who encourage other parents to actually supervise, support and kno their children. It’s a drum I bang all the time.

I don’t think ubiquitous online porn/games are the sole reason for male violence

Neither do I. That's not at all what I've said. I think the confusion might be that you've created a strawman to argue against? I think we're actually arguing quite similar points.

I feel I’m not making my position clear - I don’t think ubiquitous online porn/games are the sole reason for male violence - if this was the case no one would have been raped prior to 2004. It’s more these things create the conditions now where if you’re already that way inclined, it gives you ideas, validation and justification for what you want to do. Much like when they do research on psychopathy and psychopaths brought up in loving, caring, functional circumstances tend to funnel their psychopathy into ‘positive’ pursuits rather than violence. I see that all that stuff creates the conditions that enable male violence against women and girls rather than creating the loving, caring, functional circumstances where it wouldn’t even occur to a 12 year old you could do those things as those things would not exist beyond the small proportion of predators that come up with this all on their own.

Or maybe how it is, is how it is and the fact that 1/5 of women and girls in this country have been raped is simply how it is and it is not possible to change this with any action. I don’t believe that, I don’t believe this is as good as it gets for women and girls.

I think on the whole that porn is an expression of misogynistic society rather than a cause of it. As such I would count it as hate material that should be done away with but it won't be because its roots are so deep. And even if it were done away with, women and girls would still be raped. They were being raped long before free porn sites came along. It is filmed abuse and the men in the industry are abusers. For that reason it should all be shut down tomorrow. But the real issue is the attitudes that lie behind porn. While they persist, women and girls are at risk.

It’s like if you’re living in a war zone and you’re a woman then you’re highly likely to be raped. The conditions and justifications that are made for this happening are because it’s a war zone.

Violent porn, violent games that allow you to rape characters, every other tv show routinely using the rape and murder of women as a plot device, music that reduces us to bitches and hos, books where we boobily breast down the stairs, advertising where we are wearing nothing for no reason, websites full of utter hatred towards women with no recourse etc are our modern war zone. There is propaganda daily which tells men and boys that they do not need to respect us and can treat us like meat. We are not fully human like they are and as such, can be treated like chattel.

Your ancient judges grew up with women essentially being beholden to husbands and fathers, your 12 year old rapist grows up with women as bitches who need to do as their told and are only good for sex and making sandwiches. Same old, same old.

There is a reason why feminists have campaigned against pornography for decades.

Watch the Gail Dines talk. Pornography is part of what is driving these attitudes. What makes you think that older men don't watch porn? That judges and lawyers are not subject to the influence of women-hating in the culture generally, and porn specifically? There is research which shows watching porn makes men more likely to victim blame. Porn perpetuates misogynistic attitudes towards women which are part of a culture of victim blaming which means males can rape without fear of consequences.

I do not believe that males are innately evil. We are all formed by our society. We grow up in a society where women are hated, reviled, blamed and tortured simply for being women. Porn is part of that. It helps to give form and focus to misogyny. It's not the only influence, but it is a powerful one. It shouldn't be discounted. Neither should the women who are churned up and destroyed by the multi-billion porn industry.

I guess what I'm saying is, that although these things are horrific and no kid should ever be exposed and the men making and watching this stuff are disgusting, I think they bring out something that was always there as a result of how they have been raised or treated from birth.

And I want nothing more than for porn or TV shows or computer games to he kept out of the defence. For every one of them to be held accountable for what they are.

If a judge is able to even use it to reduce a sentence or let them walk then they must be at it themselves imo

I know what porn is. And all these men now were once boys.

Boys who like us perhaps didn't grow up with what kids have now.

They did however grow up entitled and with all the signs dismissed as normal behaviour.

The very people making the decisions as to whether someone gets a jail sentence are often men much older . Who also had nkne of this. Amd when men walk out of court because they were sex deprived or the judge blamed porn those were not held accountable.

I havent said it doesn't impact at all. But there is no deterrent any more and that will also lead to more and more.disgusting horrific things being done

No one stands up and says I'm.a disgusting violent rapist . They blame someone or something. And for as long as that is believed as full explanation of said behaviour not only are men laughing but we are not looking at the changes that could jsbe been made from the second they entered the world

I'm not saying that rapists shouldn't be held accountable???? looking at how society works and the influence of society on our development, morals, behaviour and expectations (i.e. sociology ffs) isn't arguing that people aren't responsible for their actions. Trying to see and understand the connections between things isn't letting people off the hook. Where do you get the idea that trying to understand the reasons and causes and influences on behaviour is making excuses for that behaviour?

Rape is certainly not a new phenomenon, but it's only in the last few years that it's become normal and common for men to spit on women during consensual sex, for example. Where do you think men are getting that behaviour from? No one is saying that the men who assault and rape shouldn't be held accountable but how the hell does it follow from that that we shouldn't critique pornography and understand its influence?

And "a porno" ffs. You are talking about the filmed rape and abuse of women. It is absolutely horrendous and real women and children are harmed in its making. Even if you don't believe pornography has any influence over the wider culture (you are wrong) that doesn't change the fact that it is literal torture for the real human females and children of both sexes who are trafficked into it.

golden

See I dont think it's about being desensitized. A crime is a crime by the very definition of what ever that crime is. The basic definitions arent being rewritten to cover for people who have varying ideas of the seriousness .

It's about not caring. That attitude has been present towards women and girls since Man walked the planet. We like to think we have come a long way but allowing women to report to the police is nothing more than a courtesy idea. Its been made pretty much impossible for anything to ever come of it. Because no one cares what happens to us . They dont care of it was one loud no. and they dont care if she dies in the process. They likely will still walk away.

Men amd boys have always blamed everyone else. Whether its because they saw a porno , whether it's because she didn't scream, or whether their parents never told then they shouldn't have done it, it's just another way to get out of being held accountable. One which society with a heavy Male influence in law and policing and services meant to help people has jumped at the opportunity to do. Because Male violence makes men look bad that's the tenth rule..That has always been there. It's not new . They just find a way. Every time

Because what's the first rule? Women are responsible for what men do.

This is so sad. That poor girl and that boy should never have been exposed to such scenes. What the hell were the parents thinking?!! The girl and her friend were very brave to speak up. He should never have done what he did. He is a rapist and he shouldn't be anywhere near his sister, but ay the same time I do feel for him. He's only 12. I can only imagine there's more to it. Can a video game make a child rape? It doesn't sound that simple to me. So glad I don't have to hear the details of this case as a jury member. It will stay with them forever.

I'm not sure 2.5 years on the sex register is long enough either.

See I don’t see it as an excuse to let people off the hook when they rape and abuse little girls, I see it as part of the bigger picture where raping and abusing is nbd, you see it all the time in games and on tv, women ‘like’ being hurt and half murdered in porn so how’s anyone to know what anyone consents to these days, shooting a load of defenceless bystanders in your immersive, realistic game you play for 12 hours a day is hilarious and something to put up on YouTube and on and on. It’s desensitising people in general with regards to inflicting pain on others and having empathy for people weaker than yourself.

I watch violent stuff but it’s not where the violence is carried out by the strongest on the weakest and they are rewarded for that. Whereas that’s what you can do in gta and that’s what porn is these days and that’s what this 12 year old was easily exposed to as you don’t need to hunt far for this stuff, and that coupled with his inadequate parents and whatever inside him gave him the go ahead to make his choices, resulted in a little girl being repeatedly raped.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, this talk by Gail Dines is an excellent (but disturbing) overview of what porn is and the effects it has on boys in particular.

golden

I am.well aware of what happens to women and girls on a daily basis.

I am one.

I have 2 dds.believe me I worry every day.

I dont see the point in most these games either. I'm not a game person. But millions of people also play them with no issues.

I wont say horror movies bever added positive things to ly life. I enjoy watching them. I enjoy looking into some of the subjects . Stories re hauntings and what went on in buildings etc .

I dont think children should he exposed to this stuff of course I dont.

But I'm worried about the excuses to let boys off this disgusting behaviour and the effect on the lives of the victims as a result than I am about the accidental exposure to the stuff.

For all their faults my parents got it half right with me. I may not have felt able to tell them stuff but I did know stuff was bull shit akd was not easily led.

I can only hope to do better with my 2..

Obviously it's not the case (for most people) that just being exposed to porn and violence will make them recreate rape and violence themselves.

But they have a HUGE effect in normalising rape and violence, deadening belief in and empathy for victims (as demonstrated in this thread) and preventing normal sexual development in young people. Everything from hollywood waxes to spitting in women's faces during sex are things that have migrated from porn into young people's everyday experiences.

So yes, while it's not the case that it's the only factor, games like GTA and porn are definitely important factors in how we as a society condone, excuse, and even facilitate rape, violence, and abuse.

I don't think it's that complicated to understand, really. Companies wouldn't spend billions on advertising every year if visual messages didn't work on us. We know that they do.

What causes males to rape females - we don't know every factor in every case, but we can certainly see common trends and factors and be realistic about the effects of saturating society with images of women as dehumanised fuck-toys.

MamaDane

To add, stats indicate between 1 in 4 women are raped by the time they are in their mid 40s, 1 in 5 have been sexually assaulted since they were 16, etc (stats vary on location and specific questions, these are based on US, UK, etc...of course in some places where there is war or there are beliefs about sleeping with virgins to cure AIDS, etc the rates are much higher).

Where do you think the boys and men who are the violators come from? It’s not like one group of boys and men traveling across the world committing these rapes; 2/3 rapists are known to the victim.

Well, what that tells us is that abuse and violence is everywhere and there is absolutely no need to reproduce it and repackage it as an entertaining pastime for tweens and upwards. It’s not the same as shooting aliens or zombies or saving the world from a crazy robot is it? Women and children and men are raped everyday, abused everyday, murdered everyday- why do we need to film it and watch it or play act it? What does it say about the human race?

I was exposed to horror films as a young child and yes I’ve not gone on to own a hockey mask and a murderous doll, but equally it has not enhanced my life or protected me from real life violence or anything else positive.

*MamaDane

@mammoon That's a pretty silly question, don't you think? I think it's fair to assume a man isn't a rapist unless he's convicted of rape or if there has any other indication to indicate he's a rapist.*

Huh? Most rapes aren’t reported. Of those that are, few are prosecuted. Of those that are prosecuted, few are convicted. Not all
rapists are reported, or charged, let alone convicted and they certainly don’t walk around with signs around their neck indicating they are rapists. Many likely don’t even consider themselves rapists.

Many don’t report out of fear, confusion, because the rape was by a friend or a partner, or they were convinced they “consented” as they didn’t fight it off hard enough. Even many women are, or feel shamed for getting “into that situation”, or do not want to “ruin someone’s reputation” and thus stay silent.

I was 14 when I was sexually assaulted and raped by a so-called friend who “convinced me” it was better to give in than fight it. Guess how many I reported it to? No one. Because I felt ashamed and scared and doubted by own sanity as to what happened. Because I had a boyfriend and thought maybe my rape meant I was cheating on him and he would leave. Because I thought reporting it would get me into trouble for being sexually active. I can tell you that guy would never call himself a rapist or consider himself one.

My best friend when I was a teenager was raped by an ex-boyfriend. She reported it. He was charged. And then he was not convicted because well, she had let him in the house and it was his word against hers. He claimed she wanted him back and she was giving him “signals”. He won. And she was slandered by many who said she was trying to ruin his life.

These were both “nice guys”; what kind of signs do you think rapists walk around with to indicate they were rapists?

I don’t assume all men are rapists, but I have also known plenty of boys and men who get very confused about what is or is not consent and when they tell you stories about their own sexual experiences you can see very well what they did was not by consent aka rape. I have worked in some rather male dominated areas and heard many stories, and while none of them would label themselves rapists, and I bet nor would their families, what they did was sexual assault and/or rape. Taking home the girl who was sooo
drunk and could not say no or did say no but “not convincingly”, pressuring a women to just go a little
farther because she already had consented to this she should do that, having a partner decline sex and go to sleep and then waking them up with a sexual act, etc. So I don’t assume they aren’t rapists or aren’t capable of it either.