Talisa Garcia - transgender actress - expresses concern about wider trans umbrella and militant tactics

Sorry Row I misunderstood.

Can someone explain to me why whenever someone is called out for being rude on these boards, the comeback is always along the lines of ‘yet again woman are told off’ ?

It isn't.
Perhaps some confirmation bias?

Imissgmichael
Apologies, I didn't mean your DH, it was with regards a previous comment requiring women to take responsible for male transpeople.

I don't think identifying a male person as being male is uncivil!

Can someone explain to me why whenever someone is called out for being rude on these boards, the comeback is always along the lines of ‘yet again woman are told off’ ?
Is it normal practice here to refer to yourself as nothing but a woman? Maybe people don’t like your language becuase it’s offensive to some, maybe becuase you’re rude. Why would you assume it’s being a woman that has angered people? As opposed to.. hmm... the offensiveness of telling a TW to shut up becuase she is a TW?
Aren’t most people on mumsnet woman anyway? Or is it just emotive language to enhance the ‘ I am the victim you know’ narrative?
I’ve always wondered...

Row I don’t think TG could hear him through the TV. Do you? How can that be uncivil.

Thing is the character was trying to pass as a woman and didn’t tell her partner. My DH saw through this straight away as did everyone I live with. I really don’t see how people are so blind.

“I didn't realise she was trans. She speaks so much sense I have nothing but admiration for her”

Except where TG admitted having sex with men and not admitting TGs actual biological sex. In my view that’s something beginning with R.

My DH watched it and I didn’t say anything. Hid words after less than a minute wwre “that’s a bloke”.

Is there any reason why men should not be expected to behave civilly to male transpeople?

“Are you referring to loos, changing rooms ? Where do you think she should go. She looks like a woman and has had full surgery”

Really, not to me. My DH watched it and I didn’t say anything. Hid words after less than a minute wwre “that’s a bloke”. Seems cruel but the truth often is.!

Yet again, women are being told we are mean because we are unwilling to extend our understanding of women to include transwomen (even though we know trans men are women).

Men yet again are given a free pass not to include trans women.

'50 Shades Of Gaslighting: Disturbing Signs An Abuser Is Twisting Your Reality'
by Shahida Arabi
Updated September 29, 2018

"Gaslighting, explained.
How do you convince someone that something they know to be true isn’t? In psychology, what is known as the “illusory truth effect” is a phenomenon in which a listener comes to believe something primarily because it has been repeated so often. When an abuser continually tells you that you are oversensitive or that what you are experiencing is in no way abuse, you begin believing it, even if you know deep down it isn’t true.

In other words, a lie that is repeated long enough eventually can be seen as the truth. Researchers Hasher, Goldstein and Toppino (1997) discovered that when a statement (even when it is false and readers know it to be false) is repeated multiple times, it was more likely to be rated as true simply due to the effects of repetition. This is because when we’re assessing a claim, we rely on either the credibility of the source from which the claim is derived or familiarity with that claim. Surprisingly, familiarity often trumps credibility or rationality when assessing the perceived validity of a statement (Begg, Anas, and Farinacci, 1992; Geraci, L., & Rajaram, 2016).

The illusory truth effect can cause us to become susceptible to the effects of another dangerous form of reality erosion known as gaslighting. Deliberate manipulators who gaslight with the intention of eroding your reality and rewriting history tend to use the “illusory truth effect” to their advantage. They will repeat falsehoods so often that they become ingrained in the victim’s mind as unshakeable truths. (continues)

"As Dr. Robin Stern notes in her book, The Gaslight Effect:
“The Gaslight Effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sense of self, and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define {his or} her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval.”

It is in the victim seeking validation and approval from the gaslighter that the danger begins to unfold. Gaslighting is essentially psychological warfare, causing a victim to habitually question himself or herself. It is employed as a power play to regain control over the victim’s psyche, sense of stability and sense of self.

By playing puppeteer to the survivor’s perceptions, the manipulator is able to pull the strings in every context where his or her target feels powerless, confused, disoriented and on edge, perpetually walking on eggshells to keep the peace." (continues)

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

some of the posts read as urgh a man, go away, not my problem , yet the problems are a direct result of our sexist society. And perhaps by going oh man not my problem we reenforce some divisions inadvertently, promote sexism.

The requirements of femail socialisation and male entitlement are both products of sexism.

TRA have a lot of power that the moment. They have a lot of influence over politicians and the media, as well as other organisations.

It's an ideal time for them to ask for their own spaces. But all I hear are male transpeople saying that they should be in women's spaces, sports and organisations.

There's little point in taking about other solutions here when none of these will be acceptable.

I am not asking that transwomen should be treated as a woman in every circumstance, but some of the posts read as urgh a man, go away, not my problem , yet the problems are a direct result of our sexist society. And perhaps by going oh man not my problem we reenforce some divisions inadvertently, promote sexism.

wider context:
Sian Griffiths,Times, article
'Gay and trans lessons for primary schools'
(extract)
"Compulsory lessons to teach children from the age of five about gay and trans relationships will be outlined in guidance to head teachers to be published tomorrow.

The controversial new statutory guidance will also spell out for the first time the end of parents’ right to opt their children out of sex and relationships education classes in secondary school. The change will guarantee all children receive at least a term of lessons by the time they are 16.

The new classes will be introduced nationally in 2020 following a six-month consultation by the Department for Education.

Primary school pupils will learn about same-sex and trans families as well as staying safe online and developing “healthy, respectful relationships”. Secondary school pupils will receive classes on relationships and sex, including education about the “catastrophic” damage caused by female genital mutilation (FGM), the risks of sexting, online grooming, domestic violence and forced marriage." (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gay-and-trans-lessons-for-primary-schools-7nd8tgqcw?shareToken=7e8e54f335c38298ecbae9a634bf0dfc

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3516346-Compulsory-trans-lessons-in-primary-schools-what-will-this-involve

I would think the ideal is for Talisa to be treated as transwoman. In terms of what roles (I assume this refers to specifically acting, other jobs should only under specific EA exceptions have 'Male' roles!) - it's acting, surely actors can audition for any part they think they can play convincingly. In terms of facilities - I can't see any practical solution which meets all needs (real needs not 'validation') other than having as standard single sex plus properly designed any sex.

Talisa Garcia is a talented actor.

Talisa Garcia's personal experience/beliefs should not shape policies which impact the safeguarding of vulnerable adults and children.

I've no idea. This is a feminist board, concentrating on the rights of women and girls.

I don't believe that any solution should
mean that women and girls lose their much needed and wanted rights to sex segregated spaces.

SO how should society look after people like Talisa ? Is treating them like a man, so Male toilets , expecting to only apply for male roles, going to repair the damage or push them out of society and deepen their problems ?

from the Daily Mail,
She says there was no discernible moment when she realised she was a girl trapped in a boy's body. It's more that there was never a moment when she didn't feel female.

'It's hard to describe, but my head never matched my body, and I still think it's easier to operate on your body, because you can't operate on your brain."

This is the narrative which has been absorbed and is being promoted by the media and in schools by TRAs and organisations such as Mermaids Charity.

This framework of understanding was created and offered by a small group of doctors- surgeons who offered 'sex change' operations and psychologists such as Dr Domenico DiCeglie who founded the 'Gender Identity Development Service' (Tavistock GIDS)

from GIDS website:
You founded the Gender Identity Development Service. What gave you the idea to do so?

"I was inspired to start the Gender Identity Development Service in 1989 by an encounter with a teenager, who was assigned female at birth, who perceived himself to be male. I saw him for exploratory psychotherapy in the mid-80s following three overdoses. In one of the sessions he wondered why his parents had not understood his situation when he was a child and sought professional help and support. This started my thinking about setting up a specialist service for this group of young people"

gids.nhs.uk/who-we-are/domenico-diceglie

Brava that transwoman! I agree. I think it's a brave thing to come out like that, when you don't have to. I also think it's a brave thing to criticise the Butlerian Jihadis- very few public figures are willing to do so.

That said, from the article:

do I get cross when people refuse to see me as a 'real' woman? No. That is their right. We have freedom of thought and freedom of speech in this country.

The women who wouldn't call her her, even as a courtesy, have made that decision because of the huge ground given up to Butlerism in a short space of years. That is not the same as wanting to deny people rights, intimidate or persecute them.

We don't all need to agree on everything.

It reminds me of a comment an Irish friend of mine made (early 90s, Troubles still ongoing). "There is no neutral language. As soon as you refer to a certain town as 'Derry' or 'Londonderry', you've picked a side."

Indeed! My daughter lives in the NI border village or Roslea (Irish spelling) but if you spell it Rosslea (the official spelling) you're dead! smile. All the shops, pubs etc call it Roslea but the village sign is Rosslea, with the second S scratched out.

Vocabulary matters. I will never call a man "she/her", not even to be polite.

I take a different meaning from those stories. Northern Ireland is a case study in the harm that entrenched, uncompromising commitment to one side of a dispute can cause. I think we can listen to and respect those we disagree with, without giving up our position.

I've not read the comments in the mail, I don't care how many people disagree with me, I don't support vulnerable (or any) children being given illegal drugs.

I know the definition of women is adult human female, regardless of what the comments say in any newspaper.

I know that women and girls need and want sex segregation, regardless of the life stories of male transpeople.

Oh, look. We're playing TRA bingo

You (general you) gender critical feminists might want to think about this. The Daily Mail regularly reports on trans issues. It does so in a relatively neutral way leaving its readers to make up their own minds.

The DM has had a bit of reassessment on MN in the last 18 months. It has gone from being the lefty favourite figure to hate to the acknowledgement that occasionally it speaks sense. Its reporting of issues that women and children is better than the Guardian's.

The DM readers are virtually unanimous in their rejection of trans extremes such as mixed toilets, trans women in male prisons, trans women in sport etc. That's a large section of mainstream UK opinion on your side. However the comments on this article (when I last checked) were all supportive.

You (general you again) are of course free to stick your hardline gc views and risk alienating supporters.

I don’t think talisa cares if you think she’s a man, I just think it’s pretty vile trying to put her down further or telling her to shut up because she’s a transwoman and therefore use woman’s facilities.
A lot of people (myself included) are concerned about self ID and the impact of the wider trans umbrella but have no issue with genuine transsexual people getting on with their lives and having an opinion.

You actually are denying her right to exist as a trans woman

Oh come off it. It really isn't like you to make that sort of logic fail, MP.
Direct quote from that article:
I'm as close to being a woman as I can possibly get. But I wasn't born a woman, and when I die my body will be that of a man because, realistically, my skeleton is a man's.
'But I'm not bothered what words people use. Call me a woman. Call me a man. Just give me respect. All I want is a bit of respect.'

Baptiste is one of the sensible transwomen who know that they are, and always will be, men. And in this case, same-sex attracted ie gay. Saying Baptiste is a gay man is not in any way incompatible with being a transwoman, with every right to exist as such.