So, could we just change words?

But my penis IS a vagina.

RedRosa
My answer to that is to take a leaf from Sheila Jeffreys, Julia Long and increasing numbers of women who refuse to use any of that 'gender' language.

No 'female bodied transmen' or FABs or any of the other crap we've been coerced into using while trying not to upset people.

Just use the words every ordinary person understands - man/ woman, male/ female.

That tweet. What to rage more about. The tweet itself or the 'grateful' response.

I despair.

A tweet I saw earlier...

Start from the point that there is no way to make this person happy. Whatever you do will never be enough, or right. And then do what is objectively right rather than invest in fruitlessly running around trying to please them."
Oh very good!

It bothers me these days that when I say my pronouns are she/her (I am asked at nearly every bloody thing these days) or when I say I am a woman people hear that I "identify" as a woman rather than that have been identified as one because of my body (and that I do not believe in gender) and so i am literally telling them I have as vagina. It means nothing other than that for me. Not because I am "cis" or "identify" with womanhood but because I belong to the female sex class. The language has already been massively co-opted and I fear that there is no return now. I hope I'm wrong.

Wise line manager.

She was. And she was right. It was largely the experience of having people running around in confusion apologising and reasoning and trying to please and failing so they could be shouted at some more that was meeting the client's needs. #gamespeopleplay

Lots of AGPs are getting inverted penises nowadays. So, no, that 'marker' does not fly with me.

As stated above, they have already started using 'female'. And I have seen 'cs' used too (rare though due to the majority view of 'us vs them' mentality. Cs people are the worst apparently, oppressors innit..and, like, so boring)

Lastly, change our words? Fuck, no.

Drives me mad.

Sigh, jellyfrizz, I know.. :( it's sad that even trans inclusive (I.e. gender identity inclusive) spaces for FABs would still be hounded. I wish more trans men who have female bodies would join with this fight. And that more non-binary FABs would be de-cultified and recongise that they are being massively short changed if we can't discuss sex and sexism as real. FABs really need our own space, it doesn't bloody matter what our beliefs about gender are, just like it doesn't matter what our religious beliefs are or political beliefs. We need FAB spaces still to combat the environment of sexism and female socialisation we are born into and raised with.

But then you get 'I have always been female, my body just doesn't match.'

I was really rooting for FAB up to that point. Of course transwomen will say they have always been female.

And we know and they know that they aren’t women, but give it a couple of years and it will be illegal to even think that, never mind say it.

Amen to that Knicknackpaddyflak.

the end goal for some is to eliminate any way of differentiate women on the basis of their sex, whatever words are used

Yes, this. Whichever word we use for ourselves is the word they will want.

TRAs commonly claim that 'cis women aren't the standard for womanhood'. But we clearly are. Without us, the word 'woman' has no meaning, and no value at all for transgender males.

If all the adult human females stopped calling ourselves 'women' and referred to ourselves as 'XXers' instead, no man would be interested in being a 'trans woman'. They'd all be identifying as 'trans XXers'. And it would be a hate crime to call them an XY.

I like the idea of FAB spaces. Because, whichever way you look at it, it is female at birth people who are most at risk. A transwoman in a female prison endangers the women there. But a transman in a men's prison is also in danger. There's no danger to the men in prison by having a transman amongst them, but the transman would be at risk for sure.
The same goes for changing rooms etc, and also within sport eg a transman would never beat a MAB (actually quite liking that term). Transman will also never be able to compete with biological males for jobs etc.

It is always, always the FAB who suffer.

I have thought a bit about having spaces for "FAB" people (female at birth).

But then you get 'I have always been female, my body just doesn't match.'

As my line manager used to say to me when working with a 'vexatious client' (toxic person usually with a personality disorder) "Start from the point that there is no way to make this person happy. Whatever you do will never be enough, or right. And then do what is objectively right rather than invest in fruitlessly running around trying to please them."

I have thought a bit about having spaces for "FAB" people (female at birth). This would actually include a lot of trans men, non-binary FABs too (so, yeah, not trans exclusionary..), and the rest of us who don't recognise gender as a thing, but do recognise sex and sexism and something that needs combatting.

A lot of transwomen already call themselves “adult human females” so whatever term you come up with will be appropriated by some transwomen.

Precisely. Which is why I've reached the point now of just a flat reply of no. Women are women, end of.

There is no nice way out of this OP, it is not about terms or inclusion, it's about colonisation, control and taking things from women. For women, it has to be all about boundaries and the good old classic of ignoring bad/insane behaviour until the screaming and hurling of toys stops.

They have already started using the term biological woman, and adult human female. There is no way a new term won't be appropriated and it would leave all women's rights and legal things to them.

I was new to this around the time of "womxn," and I thought that was a nice compromise- leaving woman for us women, having a new word for times both groups were combined. I totally misread the situation and underestimated how reasonable the other side might be.

No. Because they want to abolish sex as any meaningful/extant differentiation anywhere. That's why they change the language.

You've chicken and egged it.

I'm aware some MtF trans people have their penises removed and vaginas created out of them, but imo anyone willing to do that can share women's facilities as they're clearly very committed
No fucking way am I going to start encouraging self-mutilation. This way of thinking is medieval in my opinion.

It's more rebellious to refuse to alter your language these days.
Whatever women call themselves will be co-opted.