So, could we just change words?

I actually think 'male trans person' is more inclusive than the many other labels, as it covers all male people with a trans identity, non binary etc

Butteryellow, that's a good point.

I used to think along these lines. Infact I made a post a while back along the same type of line. Basically saying maybe we should just give up 'woman' and declare ourselves female or something. But alas, female was the next term appropriated by males, so no...nothing would work. I now tend to just use male trans people when speaking about any male person who says they are trans. Its easier that way, and doesn't confuse newbies as much...so many people I have found, thinks a transwoman is a female person with a male identity. Which is the way it makes sense really?

The problem is that laws have been written on the assumption that everyone agrees woman = adult, human, female.

Losing the definition of the word woman means that all these laws are now at best ambiguous, and at worst meaningless.

Which is why we need to fight to retain woman, otherwise we have to start over from the beginning on Equalities legislation, Maternity provision etc.

(except when you need to be fighting sexism or protecting females in a partriarcal world that is...)

Yes names seems best. I wish pronouns didn't exist, it's daft to be constantly referring to peoples sex anyway.

I see, thank you!

I maintain that if we have to ask everyone their pronouns, we may as well do away with them completely and just use names all the time..

Bingoitsadingo, lots of activist spaces or training (including community activism in areas very unrelated to ID politics), LGBT spaces, educational space, feminist events (younger crowd). Could be more specific but it would be identifying. I have even been automatically called "they" despite reluctantly saying my pronoun was she/her because ppl seemed to think that my androgynous look meant that I must be "non-binary" rather than a nonconforming female.

Blocked from that twitter account

I will never get re educated

Oh dear

That Twitter thread ImFine

I don't have enough to represent my feelings.

It doesn't matter what language is used, it'll be co-opted. That's the problem. Male/female are biological terms, but that's not relevant any more.

What about "I don't have a gender identity, but you can use whichever pronouns you consider sensible to describe my sex" as a response?

Out if interest, what kind of events are you all being asked for your pronouns at? I haven't come across it at all!

Jellyfrizz, if you did that they would assume you to be trans rather than as rejecting the whole gender thing, because lots of non-binary people already request this.

Ha, true. Let them assume. That's the whole problem with gender isn't it? It's all a load of assumptions.

RedRosa90

People have become so appallingly rude and childish. Identity politics seems to bring out the absolute worst in people.

Also, Jellyfrizz I feel we might be in a similar age/type of social circle because I take it this happens to you loads too. I have stopped going to things where I think it might happen which has reduced my social life considerably. I can't avoid it for things that are very personally meaningful such as my work though. So I have to find ways. I always find it a big relief when something is being run by older women who don't tend to roll with all this so easily.

And yes, I agree with everyone about sticking with men and male, female and women. Transsexual men might not like it but I am not prioritising them over others or myself.

Jellyfrizz, if you did that they would assume you to be trans rather than as rejecting the whole gender thing, because lots of non-binary people already request this. But it would definitely solve the whole assumption you are identifying as what your pronoun is. Go for it! Let us know how it goes if you like. I think I might just start saying calmly that whilst I respect others pronoun choice I don't believe in gender so I will not say my pronoun because it's tantamount to the first question they ask me being what's between my legs and I find that a bit invasive. Apart from that I probably wouldn't say that because all it would mean is that people wouldn't speak to me and I'd be even more socially excluded than I am. Maybe I'll just say "it's complicated but I don't want to share my pronoun".

If anyone asks me for pronouns I will advise them of my non participation in indentity politics.

Any term you claim will be demanded.

Even those silly enough to accept 'cis' have seen a slow creep to take that one.

They've land grabbed 'woman' and we've shifted to 'Adult Human Female', and they've demanded it. The same thing has happened in a rather high profile manner with 'biological woman'.

The answer is not to invent a new term ripe to be colonized. The answer is to call women, women, and not cede any ground in the first place.

We need a watertight dam. Females exist. We are a very specific group. We are enough, as ourselves, to credit recognition, rights and protections.

The era of female as a purported identity has got to come to an end. There's no other way.

Thank you, Barracker. At this point, women need hard boundaries. Anything else will be taken by men as an invitation to start negotiating away our 'no'.

Currently the media and politicians are framing this battle as if 'women' is a club that a bunch of haughty bitches want to stop some poor, suffering men from joining. Unfortunately, the framing that most GC feminists have taken in response to this ('we need to find a way to balance women's and transwomen's rights') actually reinforces this narrative, which is why it is ultimately a losing proposition.

There is no balance to be found between the right of women and girls to have our sex socially and legally recognised, and the desire of some men to be affirmed as 'women'. The problem is not a clash of rights, but that a material reality ('sex') is being replaced in law and policy with a metaphysical claim ('gender identity').

This is not a clash between the 'rights' of two marginalised groups, it is a fight for the female half of humanity to retain the right to have our biological reality socially, legally and even medically (!) recognised, because some men find that reality inconvenient and offensive to them.

Man/woman, male/female.

Transwoman / transman.

These simple factual descriptions exist already. The problem isn't one of finding the right language.

mobile.twitter.com/lisaquestions/status/1097992699469131777

Trying again

Kettleon

Wanna rage a bit more?

That tweet was in response to this -

mobile.twitter.com/lisaquestions/status/109799269946913177

It bothers me these days that when I say my pronouns are she/her (I am asked at nearly every bloody thing these days) or when I say I am a woman people hear that I "identify" as a woman rather than that have been identified as one because of my body (and that I do not believe in gender) and so i am literally telling them I have as vagina. It means nothing other than that for me. Not because I am "cis" or "identify" with womanhood but because I belong to the female sex class. The language has already been massively co-opted and I fear that there is no return now. I hope I'm wrong.

This drives me mad too. I may start saying I have no gender identity so wish to be referred to by my name rather than pronouns.