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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt is leaving Stonewall

411 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 21/02/2019 16:21

Just seen this on Twitter.

twitter.com/ruth_hunt/status/1098604129394585601?s=21

I’d like to think her successor will be less homophobic. We shall see, although I’m not holding out much hope.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 13:28

And Ruth Hunt going, can probably be considered a good first sign that the pressure is building.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 13:20

I am sure that organisations like the Lottery, the NSPCC and Girl Guides would get early wind of a major enquiry. Mermaids kept their money, the NAS still signpost to Mermaids, the Police adhere to their Stonewall written guidance, major lawfims and banks vie to be Stonewall top 100 employers.

The lobbyists and advisors are still in place.
It won't be a single enquiry but a succession of threads are already being pulled and as questions are asked in various departments and organisations inevitably further ones will be required.
Its already happening in Scotland.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 26/02/2019 13:18

It will change, and there will be a stampede when it does. But no sign yet. Which gives a new CE a window in which to act decisively.
Yes, this is the first step in a journey that will take years.

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 13:14

I am sure that organisations like the Lottery, the NSPCC and Girl Guides would get early wind of a major enquiry. Mermaids kept their money, the NAS still signpost to Mermaids, the Police adhere to their Stonewall written guidance, major lawfims and banks vie to be Stonewall top 100 employers.

It will change, and there will be a stampede when it does. But no sign yet. Which gives a new CE a window in which to act decisively. though they will bottle it

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 13:12

Press for Change has been pressing for change surreptitiously behind the scenes for years. I wonder what part that organisation has had to play in all of this, whilst keeping its name well below the radar.

Press For Change have been lobbying cross-party and no doubt played a key role in the changes at Stonewall.

17/10/18 on a FWR thread condemning Stephen Whittle's use of predicted suicide, he joined and commented confidently:

In the end we will pull ourselves together and continue the campaigning - as we have always done. We know we have Labour behind this one, so will simply do our best to get them elected. As I tell the community “we have always lost more battles than we have won, but we only ever need to win the big one”.

I hope that clarifies matters."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3397010-Guardian-article-on-MPs-concern-with-GRA?msgid=81891984#81891984

At Pink News party, Jeremy Corbyn apparently confirmed Whittle's belief:
'PinkNews Awards 2018: Jeremy Corbyn vows support for transgender reforms'
by Nick Duffy
(extract)
"Speaking about transgender rights, he said: “We must speak up for the trans community, who today face shocking attacks in the media - just as lesbian and gay people did in the 1980s - as well as now online, which can be a wonderful place but also a horrendous place where attacks take place.

“Labour supports reform of the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act to allow for self-declaration. The deadline for Government’s consultation is on Friday.

“Trans people must be able to live full, healthy, and happy lives - being the person they want to be. Labour will stand up for their right to do so.”
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/17/jeremy-corbyn-pinknews-awards-2018/

Yesterday too, the Labour Party promoted Stonewall's guidance for the GRA:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397280-Labour-party-promoting-Stonewall

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398127-Stephen-Whittle-influential-TRA-asserts-We-know-we-have-Labour-behind-this-one-so-will-simply-do-our-best-to-get-them-elected-Corbyn-seems-to-confirm-this-at-Pink-News

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3390910-Can-we-talk-about-Pink-News-Collecting-examples-of-their-propaganda

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375587-Press-for-Change

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397127-Stephen-Whittle-Press-for-Change-irresponsible-use-of-likely-suicides-follows-Helen-Belchers-Trans-Media-Watch

See also the lobbying roles played by Pink News, Trans Media Watch etc

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 13:07

Press for Change has been pressing for change surreptitiously behind the scenes for years. I wonder what part that organisation has had to play in all of this, whilst keeping its name well below the radar.

this thread is illuminating:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

TimeLady · 26/02/2019 13:04

Press for Change has been pressing for change surreptitiously behind the scenes for years. I wonder what part that organisation has had to play in all of this, whilst keeping its name well below the radar.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 13:03

I think you are suggesting that the various oversight mechanisms, like the charities commission need to step in.

There will be a number of enquiries including charity commission and parliamentary enquiries. They are inevitable.

The impact of the lobbying has impacted Safeguarding, Child Protection and Duty of Care to children and vulnerable adults.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 13:00

Yes. But how long did that take.
Yes Stonewall/Mermaids deserve thorough scrutiny. But I suspect we may have to wait till there are sufficient detransitioners. In short as long as we waited for Saville (and note the BBCs reluctance to broadcast) and Rotherham.

There are too many points of pressure to prevent an enquiry. Any enquiry into the medical treatment of childen who have identified as transgender will have to focus on the roles played by prominant charities who have been lobbyists such as Mermaids and Stonewall.

Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed on last night's Panorama & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
Carl Heneghan
Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford

Tom Jefferson
Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford
Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University

'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

Just as the MoJ investigation into thesexual assault of vulnerable female prisoners by the convicted male prolific sexual predator Karen White will forceinvestigation into the translobbyists who affected prison policy.

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:58

I think we may be saying the same thing.

I am saying the next CE needs to have strong political skills, read the room and start reining Stonewall in. If not clients will be catching on and starting to distance themselves.

I think you are suggesting that the various oversight mechanisms, like the charities commission need to step in.

Probably a mixture of both. And probably not enough of either. I suspect Stonewall does mot have the governance or will to reform from within. And given the extent of Stonewalls reach, too embarrassing to allow for public condemnation in the short term. Instead it will probably, as a tainted brand, wither away into obscurity.

I think there is space for a replacement lesbian organisation, able to pitch for some of the diversity training and consultancy.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 12:43

There was some debate within Lords especially last autumn which has relevence. Due to Brexit a lot of bills and legislation have become derailed and not accorded sufficient time and scrutiny.

Charities criticised by lords over transparency and campaigning
14 Sep 2018
(extract
‘Charities have gone beyond their remits’
Lord Suri, a Conservative member of the house, said that he felt some charities had gone “beyond their remits to engage in political campaigns, using donations from members of the public and government grants to do so”.

He said there had been a “collapse in trust in charities in this country” and that the recent safeguarding scandal had “brought shame on the sector”.

This means, he said, that “charities ought to focus on their charitable activities, rather than attempting to become similar to think tanks in producing policy reports, lobbying and running campaigns during elections and referenda.”

But Suri said he sympathises with the sector as the wording of the rules is “unclear” and said: “If clearer legislation cannot be produced in amended form, it would be a magnanimous gesture for the Government to lay out in clear English the precise rights and obligations of third-party organisations.”

‘Reform needed urgently’
The debate was called by Lord Harries of Pentregarth, a retired bishop, to urge the government to revisit proposed amendments which would have benefitted charities.

Harries said: “The present legislation involves third-party campaigners in a disproportionate amount of time and expenditure trying to conform to it, and it causes areas of uncertainty about whether they are conforming to the law, which may inhibit them from campaigning.”

He added that: “There are important things to be done irrespective of Brexit, and one of them is improving the ill-thought-out and chilling legislation of part 2 of the Lobbying Act.”

Charities have long said that the act is having a chilling effect on their campaigning activity. A number of Lords yesterday referenced research from the Sheila McKechnie Foundation which found that 68 per cent of charities had changed their campaigns because of the legislation.

When the act was introduced it was agreed that it would reviewed. That review was carried out by Lord Hodgson and made a number of recommendations, such as shortening regulated periods and shifting the focus to the intent of the activity, that charities say would help to give them confidence to campaign. " (continues)

www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/charities-need-to-be-more-transparent-about-campaigning-say-lords.html#sthash.Gwbkf94F.dpuf

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:41

Yes. But how long did that take.

My dad was a senior Met police officer in the 70s and 80s. I though he was a complete fuddy duddy because he would sound off against Radio 1 DJs. And warn me not to stand close to the edge on tube platforms. (It was later revealed that thete was a "pusher") He also sounded off because he was not allowed to investigate some serious child abuse he stumbled across in a North London childrens home.

Yes Stonewall/Mermaids deserve thorough scrutiny. But I suspect we may have to wait till there are sufficient detransitioners. In short as long as we waited for Saville (and note the BBCs reluctance to broadcast) and Rotherham.

The next CE needs to understand and have the strength to put the currect approach into reverse gear.

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 12:39

Charity Commission, I would think?

thatdamnwoman · 26/02/2019 12:31

I'm a lesbian and was involved with Stonewall back in the 90s and noughties. There were members of the T and Q community on Stonewall committees in the late noughties. I know two lesbians who fell foul of Stonewall back then for questioning the presence of one mtf individual and one man who defined himself as queer but seemed to have a long-term girlfriend on a regional committee. Stonewall was officially just LGB at that time. I saw what happened to the women who questioned this and realised that despite the fact that lesbians dominated the local Stonewall conference and turned out in numbers to any events, we had very little say or respect within the organisation.

I agree that under Ben Summerskill Stonewall had a slow and gentle policy. I wrote a critical article in a lesbian publication about how civil partnerships were a form of apartheid and not good enough when they were first introduced. Ben phoned me and explained that this was just an interim step: the best they could push for now, but marriage would come. I was impressed by him.

Where can we turn to for legal advice on whether Stonewall still counts as a charity? It seems to offer nothing tangible to the LGB community in my region and it now seems to be a trading organisation, selling its training and branding. A legal challenge might wipe it out (she says hopefully).

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 12:30

That wont happen. There are too many people and organisations who would end up with egg on their faces

There is a historic sexual abuse investigation going on. Many established groups and prominant individuals are facing up to errors of judgement.

It will of course be resisted but the extent of the consequences of Stonewall's actions will require a thorough enquiry.

EatCashews · 26/02/2019 12:28

Thank you, FeedMe, R0 and everyone else on this thread.

I want a good, investigative piece on misogyny and the third sector in contemporary Britain. Any journalists, please?

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:18

That wont happen. There are too many people and organisations who would end up with egg on their faces

The temptation will to be to keep on digging. As clients catch on to the problem, they will limit their exposure as fast as they can.

If Stonewall is to retain any credibility they need someone who sees the bigger picture and who can put their current approachinto rapid stall or reverse.

And how did they get into this mess. I could suggest some names. But the post would then be deleted.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 12:09

What does Stonewall do next? If they are sensible they hire a savvy politician. A Mandelson type, who can understand the task, sort out sensible targets and rein in the less-compromising TRAs. They slow down, rebuild the respectability of both Stonewall and the transgender movement. (Note very few people had issues with the GRA and those with certificates, and the prevailing view is one of sympathy.)

What Stonewall has done is too serious for simply re-branding. There is a need for thorough investigation not least because of both the pulic money and the significant political influence.
Stonewall's actions have had significant Safeguarding implications for children and vulnerable adults.
How Stonewall were co-opted needs to be understood.

Needmoresleep · 26/02/2019 12:02

My theory is:

Pre 2015 Stonewall was a respected organisation with a mission to continue to promote social acceptance of LGBs, often via training and help drafting policies. There was a revolving door for senior staff between the organisation and its clients. The approach was soft and safe, indeed on the question of gay marriage, very safe. However also effective, with lots of evidence pointing to the younger generation being more accepting of homosexuality than their parents. However there was still sensitive and careful work to be done, not least with socially conservative communities for whom understanding and acceptance of British norms is a key part to their own integration and equality. .

At the same time the Ts were lobbying to be brought into the umbrella. My best guess is that the decision was made before appointing Hunt, and adding the T was the first question at interview and the first task on appointment.

Why? At that time there was an awful lot of Kool Aid floating around, particularly from the US: Caitlyn Jenner etc. Even those who had their doubts may have worried that they were simply repeating societal concerns about gays of a couple decades before. Acceptance without exception sounded right.

What went wrong?

Stonewall, structurally, was ill equipped to consider new, and controversial policy issues. In 2015 it was what it was, and did what it did, with little transparency or controversy. My guess is that neither Hunt nor the Chair really understood the implications of adding a campaign that did not have wider public acceptance and which created conflict with other groups in society. Neither had the background, skills or experience to negotiate treacherous waters whilst keeping their core supporters on board.

The next error perhaps was their trans-advisory committee. It is hard to work out how this group fits into the Stonewall decision making, but they might have been better off including some people who appreciated the concerns of other groups in society and the need for negotiation. And the CE/Board should have been able to provide further Governance/brakes/dilution to ensure they were not moving too fast for Stonewall members, clients or society. Having a young and inexperienced Aimee Challenor on the Committee was poor. Having anonymous members is shocking.

Then there were the tactics. No one but no one should be demanding "concessions" (including safeguarding protections) from other groups using a shouty #nodebate approach. If societal change is needed, debate it, and provide your justification. And listen to the concerns of others and work out appropriate safeguards.

The inevitable push back has started to take place. Respected gays, like Jonny Best and lesbians are speaking up. Respected journalists like Janice Turner and James Kirkup are speaking up. Respected donors are speaking up. Respected medics, scientists and academics are speaking up. There have been some good, questioning, programmes on TV and radio. And ordinary people on Twitter, Fb, or Mumsnet.

Stonewall has remained, well a stonewall. However I am sure the pushback has started to affect their client base. More employees are now prepared to write to their personnel department, attaching an article from the Sunday Times and questioning whether Mermaids/Stonewall etc training is suitable. At minimum some will be asking why all the emphasis on the T, when managers really want to know how best to support the, say, sheltered but bright Bangladeshi girl in their team, or the person with disabilities. Teachers and GPs too. I also have no doubt that the pre-GRA advert linking to the Stonewall guidance, and using the logos of 40 firms, did real harm.

So did Hunt walk, or was she pushed? It really does not matter. She did not understand the task and did not have the skills, so failed.

What does Stonewall do next? If they are sensible they hire a savvy politician. A Mandelson type, who can understand the task, sort out sensible targets and rein in the less-compromising TRAs. They slow down, rebuild the respectability of both Stonewall and the transgender movement. (Note very few people had issues with the GRA and those with certificates, and the prevailing view is one of sympathy.)

They acknowledge the big concerns: medicating children and the unwell; sport; and safeguarding, and offer compromises. They seek smaller and sensible reforms to the GRA, not Self-ID for the full umbrella, review the guidance they provide to people like schools and the police, distance themselves from the more fetishistic elements, and start encouraging debate.

Will they? No. I don't think they can. I don't know who was pulling the Stonewall strings but suspect it was neither Hunt nor Gooding. Both were simply there as beards, to be pushed when no longer useful. .

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 26/02/2019 12:01

The first time I changed the world was...

When I discovered cheese on toast with red onions
When I discovered sloe gin
When I first tasted red pesto as opposed the green
When I realised that I was rather good at art...

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:52

Jess Bradley's contribution to the book, 'To My Trans Sisters'
edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)

"The first time I changed the world was when I told my mates to call me she rather than he. I literally constructed a new world where its possible to understand myself as a genderqueer woman, despite being asigned male at birth simply by changing the language to describe myself. This is why language and pronouns are so important. Its about creating a world in which trans people are allowed to exist"

"And I can honestly say that the work that trans people do for each other means that, for me at least, the trans community is a beautiful place to be. Despite our differences, we have each others' backs"

the book is described:
"Dedicated to trans women everywhere, this inspirational collection of letters written by successful trans women shares the lessons they learnt on their journeys to womanhood, celebrating their achievements and empowering the next generation to become who they truly are.

Written by politicians, scientists, models, athletes, authors, actors, and activists from around the world, these letters capture the diversity of the trans experience and offer advice from make-up and dating through to fighting dysphoria and transphobia.

By turns honest and heartfelt, funny and furious or beautiful and brave, these letters send a clear message of hope to their sisters: each of these women have gone through the struggles of transition and emerged the other side as accomplished, confident women; and if we made it sister, so can you!"

source:
books.google.co.uk/books?id=gNspDwAAQBAJ

Popchyk · 26/02/2019 10:44

"How long before a split and another grouping comes together?"

Continuity Stonewall just for the LGB? Sounds like a landscaping business.

And the Stonewall left behind that focuses solely on trans issues?

Transwall? Wonderwall? Stonecutters for the transsexual wing?

I am liking a merger of GLAAD and Stonewall to give GLAADstone. They could do a line of handbag merchandising.

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:43

Why are these men so bloody influential?

For all the reasons previous groups of men who yield disproportionate power have been.

WeRiseUp · 26/02/2019 10:41

Thanks R0

R0wantrees · 26/02/2019 10:40

Keep talking, women, and don't get distracted by Ruth Hunt because the real story is Stonewall itself

The third sector does not seem to be a friend to women, from Save the Children to Amnesty to Stonewall.

The abuses of power within third sector organisations are driven by men's sexual rights movement and especially impact children and women.

Guardian 6/2/19
'Amnesty International has toxic working culture, report finds
Bullying, public humiliation and discrimination threaten rights group’s credibility'
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/06/amnesty-international-has-toxic-working-culture-report-finds

Guardian 22/10/15
'Why is a pimp helping to shape Amnesty’s sex trade policy?
by Kat Banyard
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/22/pimp-amnesty-prostitution-policy-sex-trade-decriminalise-brothel-keepers

Guardian 9/10/18
'One in four Save the Children staff 'suffer discrimination or harassment'
Employees reported being ignored, humiliated or ridiculed, in a review commissioned by the charity in the wake of sexual harassment scandals'
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/09/one-in-four-save-the-children-staff-suffer-discrimination-or-harassment-review-finds

Guardian 26/5/18
'Save the Children suspends UK funding bids over abuse scandal
Charity chief says it will not seek government funds until it meets expected standards'
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/26/scandal-hit-save-the-children-cut-off-from-uk-government-funding

31/7/18CNN
'Sexual abuse 'endemic' in international aid sector, damning report finds'
edition.cnn.com/2018/07/30/uk/sexual-abuse-aid-sector-uk-report-intl/index.html

31 July 2018
International Development Committee

'Sexual exploitation and abuse in the aid sector inquiry'
Key points
Sexual exploitation and abuse is across all organisations, countries and institutions
Collective failure of leadership and engagement from top levels down over many years
Self-delusion of aid sector in dealing with and tackling problems
Failing to put victims at the heart of solutions could be harmful; certainly renders reforms ineffective
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/international-development-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/sexual-exploitation-in-aid-sector/

There are systemic Safeguarding and Child Protection failures within charities which have become corporate bodies.