#TeamNavratilova is gathering pace!

I agree that most men probably won't care about women in sport any more than they care about other women. Yes, they will probably see that it is unfair, but I'm not sure they'd care enough to actually do anything. Then you've got the men who think women should have to compete against men because women are rubbish and if they want equality blah blah.

There are some men who are interested in all sport, but most men (and indeed women) who like sport are only thinking of men's sport. Hardly anybody even says 'men's sport' (apart from feminists making a point) because that is the default.

And there are people who don't care about sport who will see this all as entirely trivial. I don't really care about sport that much, but I do care about women and I care about their options being limited in terms of careers or leisure activities solely on the basis of their sex. It's outrageously unfair, but you have to care about women to see it as a big deal.

I'm not sure men are going to support this necessarily. They care about sport. But not sure they care about women's sports enough. Attendance, money, tv and radio scheduling shows that. After all, if a load of men start saying they are women to succeed in that category of sport, it's only going to fuck up women's sport. Men's sport won't be blemished.

Long story short:- men watch men play sport.

As ever, sunlight is by far the best tactic.

Indeed. And spotlights and torches.

When the IOC made their decisions on transgender athletes back in 2015, the committee comprised of 14 men, 4 women, 1 transwoman and 1 woman who had been banned from athletics because they were XY chromosone.
That is not representative of society.

I hear you, Zutt. It's about the failure of the media to include women in these discussions. That's why people are now asking where are the feminists.
Stephen Nolan discussed the topic with two trans people after McKinnon managed to get Nic Williams no-platformed. Channel 5 discussed the topic with three trans people.
It's ridiculous.

The only people who stand to gain by denigrating Debbie Hayton or any TW questioning transideology are TRAs.

I've every right to question the inclusion of someone speaking about a gender critical view of womens sport when Debbie has no experience of either.

Yes Cookieflavoredbiscuit. That is certainly in the back of my mind.

However, let's get the discussion up and running, and be able to talk freely about the distinctions between men and women.

We've already had the prison service now realising that mixed prisons are a bad idea, and why.

Now sport is on the cusp.

As ever, sunlight is by far the best tactic.

When people say deluded nonsense like women are just as strong as men, the public will realise that support for, say, mixed sex changing rooms, is only backed by these idiots.

Let's get all these people who say they can tell predators by looking into their souls, that throwing money at an 11-year-old boy in a gay club isn't exploitative, etc, out into the open.

Yes, you could be right cookie. I have noticed on my fb that whilst other GC posts get barely a like, ones to do with this are getting far more.

Butvi have to hope that it will go the other way - that those who've thought TWAW will realize what nonsense that is.

I think you're right cookie, which is where it gets very murky in other areas, eg safeguarding.

Conflating abuse, criticism and disagreement are endemic. I see it all the time on MN.

Mumsnet occasional lurker and first time poster here. While I’m tickled pink to see the response Martina has been getting and the attention that it’s drawn (even Mr. Sylvester wondering where are the feminists),
I’m a bit worried that (maybe even only professional) women’s sports might become the “exception” to the transwomenarewomen rule. Long before this, I’ve come across men saying as much (seeing as some of them care about/understand sports more than women’s rights). I wonder if this might be India’s angle.

One can only imagine she has been subject to the same threats and abuse that people like Alison Moyet and Robert Webb recieve from the extreme end of the TAs.
RM likes to boast about the amount of abusive tweets they receive, however I am willing to bet that most of these are simply critisism, not abuse, especially from women. The actual abuse in this debate towards trans people always seems to come from men. Not the women/feminists the extreme TRAs seem to target.

I'm not denigrating Debbie, but I think it is a very fair question to ask why Debbie is being given access to platforms when no women are involved except the interviewer. Debbie speaks clearly, and that's fine and helpful in the big picture.

It's also part of the problem that Debbie gets to speak and someone like Nic Williams is silenced.

I’m certain that the TRAs are going to turn this whole situation to their advantage and use it to support the pre-pubertal transitioning of children.

There are many tra who will use any situation to encourage children to use puberty blockers.

Does Debbie ask for instance, why the show they are on hasn't asked an actual woman onto the show?

Did Debbie even question why they were asked, given that Debbie is not either female, or an athlete?

Debbie has risked a lot standing up for women’s boundaries and speaking at events.

Ah. Definitely cold feet then.

I’m certain that the TRAs are going to turn this whole situation to their advantage and use it to support the pre-pubertal transitioning of children.

Of course, Emma Freud has links with both the BBC and Comic Relief. Someone probably had a word.

But no, of course women's concerns aren't being silenced...

What worries me about the distinction that is being made between junior and senior sport. As in it is ok for trans girls to play with girls at junior and amateur levels, but not performance levels.

1. Places on all important talent pathways will be lost to girls. There is only room for, say, two 15 year old hockey goalkeepers on a county pathway, even a big county like Surrey. There may only be room for one distance butterfly swimmer of the same age. If boys are stronger and faster, and certainly in most clubs there will be several boys who can beat the best girl, it is very possible that talented girls, the best in their age group will lose out on pathway places. Failure to recruit on anything but performance would result in law suits, especially in sports with the potential for US University scholarships.

1. Increased risk of injury. My daughter played mixed adult hockey for a while aged 15, and I worried for her, though actually it was a casual game and the guys were very careful when coming up against the women - my daughter's main gripe was that she could not go to the pub afterwards. Injuries happen. Girls playing against bigger and stronger, but possibly less skilled players, will be at more risk. A lot of schools wont allow mixed hockey fixtures, even when they have girls and boys teams, presumably for that reason.

1. Girls may be put off playing sport. We already have a problem with girls participating. Girls seem to come out of primary schools with little familiarity, so club players dominate school teams and it is difficult for beginners to make headway. Then puberty and awkwardness. Having transgirls in the changing room and on the playing field wont help. Oddly girls then seem to gain interest and confidence aged about 16, and sixth forms who offer "new" sports like football can get a really good uptake. But these work because almost everyone is new so at the same level. Boys or transgirls, who have played since the age of five would again act as a disincentive to newbies.

My guess is that the distinction is more about money, TV Rights, and sponsorship. Otherwise it makes no sense. Keep sex based definitions at performance level but get rid of the pathway?

Emma Freud had a TRA pile-on. Most people (eg Robert Webb, Alison Moyet) that dip their toe in, end up deleting the tweet just to make it stop.

Doesn't mean they've changed their mind.

At this point I feel like I'm explaining why the earth is round to flat earthers. It really is that ridiculous.

I know. But transideology trumps common sense, science, safeguarding etc. Because, you know, men and hurty feelz.

Why has the Emma Freud tweet disappeared?

Cold feet?