Times 16/2/1/9 Staff at trans clinic fear damage to children......

Popchyk On the recent BBC Big Questions about feminism Jane Fae alluded to preparing some sort of challenge against a particular newspaper which had run a large number of articles concerning transgenderism without sufficient comments from people who were transgender.
I wondered if this might be The Times...

perhaps missing the point that safeguarding children and vulnerable women etc are the focus points

Edward Lord wrote to The Times in December in order to instruct them to stop Andrew Gilligan from writing on transgender issues.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3459026-Edward-Lord-asking-the-Sunday-Times-to-censor-Andrew-Gilligan?msgid=83588944#prettyPhoto

Might I suggest that Lord's letter has had the opposite effect to the one he intended?

Just means international standards are a bit shoddy

Because international standards are being set by self appointed experts like this batshit crazy woman who can identify a trans babies.

A baby boy unsnapping his babygrow, a baby girl taking out hair slides or a toddler just learning to talk saying 'I boy' are all clear messages.

th-vision.net/detail/how-to-tell-if-babies-are-transgender-M7KBZeRC1RI.html

The detransistioner stories that are coming out now are really important to helping us all understand the predatory aspect of trans. Such brave young people speaking out to protect their peers.

Important extended article by Hacsi Horváth whose personal and professional experience including 'detransitioning' is significant:
I am an adjunct Lecturer in the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). I’m an expert in clinical epidemiology, particularly in systematic review methods, epidemiologic bias and evidence quality assessment. As a researcher at UCSF, I managed the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group for over a decade and on several occasions served as a consultant to the World Health Organization (WHO) in their HIV guideline development processes.

For about 13 years, I also masqueraded “as a woman,” taking medical measures which suggest, shall we say, that I was completely committed to that lifestyle. Most men would have recoiled from this, but in my estrogen-drug-soaked stupor it seemed like a good idea. In 2013 I stopped taking estrogen for health reasons and very rapidly came back to my senses. I ceased all effort to convey the impression that I was a woman and carried on with life

Published by 4thWaveNow:
'The Theatre of the Body: A detransitioned epidemiologist examines suicidality, affirmation, and transgender identity'
(extract)
"Heterosexual males (the vast majority of men with GD) have autogynephilia.
Homosexual males with GD enjoy “femininity” and mistakenly believe this means they are “trans” or even women.
Females with GD have internalized misogyny and/or internalized homophobia.
In my opinion—which is based upon extensive research, as well as my own 13-year-long experience in pretending to be a woman–GD is only superficially concerned with one’s sex. It’s more a disturbance of identity, of mistaking the signifier for the signified. Patients have whatever mental illnesses they may have, or that develop while in the ruminations and hypomanic states that typically precede “coming out as trans.” I propose that GD is a moody, brooding syndrome that accompanies these mental illnesses. People with GD have cultivated an idealized vision of themselves as the opposite sex. At a critical point of rumination, after the patient has sufficiently disparaged his or her actual life and idealized life as the opposite sex, he or she realizes that body parts of the opposite sex may be obtained through the services of doctors (Raymond 1979, Billings 1982). Actually transforming into the opposite sex starts to seem feasible. The self-conception “splits” in two, and idealization becomes identity. Having negated any value in their actual male or female presence in the world, and now feeling themselves to actually be the self-generated persona, patients perseveratively ask themselves, “what’s stopping me?” “Feasibility” seems to trigger the split. Here begins the acute phase of GD.

Patients become obsessed with “transition.” To the same extent that they can be energized by the belief that they are making “progress,” as their bodies morph via the hormone drugs and shop clerks address them by their preferred honorifics (i.e. Miss or Ma’am for the males, Sir for the females), they can also feel destroyed by any little delay or perceived setback—including being “misgendered” or identified by others as their actual sex. Nothing else matters but “transition.” (continues)

"I agree with the late French psychoanalyst Colette Chiland when she said: “Transsexuals stage everything in the theatre of the body, and nothing in that of the psyche” (Chiland 2003). It is true that persons in the driven, obsessed stages of gender dysphoria can seemingly think of nothing except transition. No-one dreams of asking them to slow down, to seek psychotherapy... " (continues)
4thwavenow.com/2018/12/19/the-theatre-of-the-body-a-detransitioned-epidemiologist-examines-suicidality-affirmation-and-transgender-identity/

NB 4thWaveNow are "a community of parents & others concerned about the medicalization of gender-atypical youth and rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD)"

Hacsi Horváth was part of the panel at the recent Washington event,
"The Inequality of the Equality Act: Concerns from the Left"

www.heritage.org/event/the-inequality-the-equality-act-concerns-the-left

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3490776-Women-Stand-Up-in-Washington-D-C?pg=2

This is all terrifying - what is driving these people to lobby like this? I'm really glad a lot of this seems to be coming out into the open now.

Sheila Jeffries at the first 'We Need To Talk' meeting 2017 which followed Maria Machlaclan being assaulted at Speaker's Corner.

Sheila Jeffries describes transgenderism as part of men's sexual rights movement including prostitution , BDSM etc and that the use of children disguises this.

Clearly Gilligan has seen both of these GIDS reports. Maybe passed to him by a concerned staff member? Presumably in the hope that the attention will bring about change.

There seem to be increasing numers of clinicians speaking out and challenging affirmation and medical intervention for children.

recent published article by GIDS staff:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3505380-Interesting-new-article-by-two-GIDS-clinicians-The-Value-of-Extended-Clinical-Assessment-for-Adolescents-Presenting-with-Gender-Identity-Difficulties

BMJ letter by clinicians, Published 29 October 2018:
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

recent thread, OP GrinitchSpinach wrote:
"Susan Bewley et al Letter to the BMJ: Safeguarding adolescents from premature, permanent medicalisation

Susan Bewley, Margaret McCartney, Lucy Griffin and Richard Byng standing up for minors again. Bravi!

...While respecting individuals’ right to a different viewpoint, it is neither mandatory to affirm their beliefs nor automatic that transition is the goal, particularly when dealing with children, adolescents and young adults. These risk closing the ‘open future’, as well as life-long physical problems including lack of sexual function, infertility and medical dependency. With 85% desistance amongst referred transgender children (8) and increasing awareness of detransitioning (9, 10), unquestioning ‘affirmation’ as a pathway that leads gender dysphoric patients to irreversible interventions cannot be considered sole or best practice.

More good-quality research trials are required to provide reliable evidence of clinical and cost-effectiveness of a range of approaches, including patient selection. These will surely include exploration of underlying unhappiness with the goal of achieving body/mind reintegration. In contrast to previous medical scandals that pathologised homosexuality, something different may be happening here. In effect, transitioning children who would otherwise have grown up lesbian, gay or bisexual may introduce another form of conversion (6). A well intentioned but permanent medical pathway for all is unlikely to achieve the best long-term outcomes. Confirming disgust in natal sex or external sexual organs, especially for those with prior childhood trauma, risks medical collusion with, or reenacting of, abuse."

www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l245/rr-1
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507254-Susan-Bewley-et-al-Letter-to-the-BMJ-Safeguarding-adolescents-from-premature-permanent-medicalisation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3497770-RC-for-GPs-scraps-GIRES-developed-course

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3504079-Sunday-Times-article-on-James-Caspians-case-against-Bath-Spa-University

This is what stood out for me:

"Lobbying by pressure groups created “an atmosphere of significant persecution”.

Gids’ leadership was “unable to act, due to the intense scrutiny”

“You suddenly see groups of kids who at initial interview give exactly the same version of transition decisions, reasons, etc . . . I have overheard them in the corridor, parents coaching children before the interview and chiding them."

This is all terrifying - what is driving these people to lobby like this? I'm really glad a lot of this seems to be coming out into the open now.

Sort of cross-posted with fairy there.

I’m really glad Andrew McGilligan isn’t letting this drop and I’m thankful to the Times for publishing. As someone else said upthread, he’s starting to give service providers and clinicians a voice and we are hearing the first murmurs of concern. I feel so sad for children who are dealing with complex issues in their lives who are being funnelled down a transition pathway, because all the while transition is seen as the answer no one is asking the right questions and getting them the help they really need.

Thank you Andrew.

Are there any influential organisations concerned with preventing child abuse who might now begin to take an interest?

Mrskeats

I am repeatedly enraged about what is happening to children. Abuse in plain sight. It is unbelievable to watch the NSPCC, the Guides, the teacher & headteacher unions, the DfE, the NHS - bloody everyone - all buying into the unethical grooming of children by activists.

Intelligent and generally honourable people / organisations just accepting the most manipulative and dangerous behaviour and never asking any questions about the Mermaids / GIRES etc bullshit. I am continually fuming ......

The detransitioners I've seen seem to be mainly young women. That makes sense, given the rocketing numbers of teenage girls who're identifying as male.

The detransistioner stories that are coming out now are really important to helping us all understand the predatory aspect of trans. Such brave young people speaking out to protect their peers.

cf
PencilsInSpace's transcript of the young woman's speech who spoke incredibly movingly and powerfully at the end of the 'We Need To Talk' event in Washington.

It was clear how profound the effects she had on the women on the panel and I'm sure all who heard her.

[1:30:40]

"My name is [Cas?], I'm 19 and I just wanted to - so I just wanted to talk, it's not really a question. Ever since I came out, in eighth grade I've been completely involved in radical queer and trans circles and I just wanted to talk about my experience.

So when you first come out nowadays in - every LGBT group is very ... inclusive, let's just say. It's just - you must respect everyone. When you're young, you're like, OK, I mean I want to be accepted by people, it feels bad when people are mean to me, of course I don't want to be mean to someone, right? And so if you don't really - and everything is accepted uncritically.

I know this transman, a trans identified female, and they got a double mastectomy at 15 and had been on testosterone since they were 13 or 14, and you're not allowed to raise questions about that because then you're evil and sort of being in this circle where any woman who's gender non-conforming is obviously not a woman. It's very easy to gain that idea. I think that even older people theorising about it can understand conceptually, but being in that space it's a very difficult mindset to get out of. And I've been really lucky, I have some radical feminist friends who've been really nice but since I discovered and understood radical feminism - I'm skipping around this story but it's fine.

I recently lost my entire friend group. So I go to college but I lost all of my friends because they were like, actually, you having three separate opinions from me means that you're unsafe and are equivalent to a nazi. Because obviously, saying that lesbians can have sexual boundaries is the same thing as kill all Jewish people. You know, it's obviously the same statement. I don't know how anyone can see it differently.

But - OK, going front to back - being part of that environment and being a lesbian and having it be not a socially acceptable thing in these spaces that are intended for same sex attracted people - it's just extremely damaging and you start to think, well, maybe I'm not a woman. I don't feel like a woman, I don't look like the women around me, you know. And being a woman is deeply traumatising.

I think almost every trans female that I know, especially detransitioned women like myself - I got a double mastectomy - we are all - a lot of us are autistic and don't fit into gender roles and don't really understand it and we're absolutely preyed upon in that sort of way. And almost all of us have experienced sexual trauma and just being a woman and experiencing things like that makes you disgusted with your body and not want men to think about you, not want to be - it's just so profoundly traumatising.

And when you're given this option of, you can escape misogyny, you can escape experiencing things like this again, even though that's not true - women who pass as men, as soon as men find out - I mean I'm friends with a lot of other detransitioned women and a reasonable number of them pass as men in their daily lives - and as soon as someone finds out they're going to be treated with violent misogyny, right? And so it's a complete lie, but it's a very enticing lie.

And even speaking about the potential side effects, even if you're like, I support the decision that you're making but I want you to take into account the ways that this will cause damage in a genuinely informed consent way. I mean I'm against - you know what I mean. That's just not something that happens.

Additionally - so when I was going to get my double mastectomy after identifying as trans for four years, I just had to go to a doctor, say 'I'm trans and I want top surgery' and then they're like, OK, you know, then they'll ask me some questions about my life, but there's no like, maybe you're a lesbian who doesn't want to be seen as a lesbian because you live in a homophobic area, maybe you're dealing with - you need to deal with some sexual trauma. Maybe there's other things, other than this sort of idea. There's none of that, it's just like, OK! And so then the next time they were just like, OK I'll write a letter to your insurance saying they should pay for it.

You know, it's just - women are really being let down, especially lesbians.

And I don't know, it's just very - going on what you were saying? I just feel so bad about my peers because it's very hard to get out of. It's such a cult-like mindset because if you talk to anyone different you are going to be excommunicated, right? You're just not going to be allowed to interact with people. I mean it's like my friends who just dropped me, you know, it's really difficult - I don't know if I'm over my time limit - I just, I don't know, when people were saying about how it's really hard as a young person to not be accepted by your peers - it is terrifying, it is so ... scary, but it's really an important thing because so many women I know, every lesbian I know in my day to day life who's not a complete normie who's never been online, has identified as trans, even if they haven't transitioned, has previously identified as trans.

Because it's just - being a lesbian sucks, guys.

I mean it's wonderful once you're able to accept it and interact with other women, but this is a terrifying societal position to occupy and I'm completely proud and out now but it's just a really scary thing because these people who are supposed to be supporting you would rather you be anything but a lesbian."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507109-Pique-Resilience-Project-young-detransitioned-women-sharing-their-personal-stories

Gilligan seems to be receiving these confidential reports from different areas now.

Last week was the prison one in which bosses are considering transgender wings.

This week is the David Bell (senior clinician and former governor of the trust) report into staff concerns at GIDS, as well as the GIDS review in response.

Clearly Gilligan has seen both of these GIDS reports. Maybe passed to him by a concerned staff member? Presumably in the hope that the attention will bring about change.

We often assume GIDs to be a benign actor in all this, making the best decisions for children in an practice with a shaky evidence base.

GIDS founder: Dr Domenico DiCeglie
Lifetime Honorary Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist

"You founded the Gender Identity Development Service. What gave you the idea to do so?

I was inspired to start the Gender Identity Development Service in 1989 by an encounter with a teenager, who was assigned female at birth, who perceived himself to be male. I saw him for exploratory psychotherapy in the mid-80s following three overdoses. In one of the sessions he wondered why his parents had not understood his situation when he was a child and sought professional help and support. This started my thinking about setting up a specialist service for this group of young people, but at the time I would never have imagined the developments which followed."

gids.nhs.uk/who-we-are/domenico-diceglie

from thread below,
kesstrel wrote:
I've just looked up Domenico di Ceglie. OMG. He was a Freudian, developing his ideas in the 1990s. The third paper down (Castaway;s Corner) gives some insight into the processes by which he developed his ideas:

scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Domenico+Di+Ceglie&btnG=

I was already wondering earlier today if one reason why the physical intervention model was developed would be because Freudian psychoanalytic therapy didn't work (which of course it wouldn't), and at that point better therapies of the CBT type hadn't yet been accepted as better...."
(extract in screenshot)

GIDS statement: Our Gender Identity Development Service
4 November 2018

As reported in the Observer today, the Trust is currently conducting an internal review into issues raised about the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS).
(extract)
"The GIDS was founded in 1989 and is one of the longest standing services for gender diverse children and young people in the world. Domenico Di Ceglie, who founded the service, wrote a set of therapeutic aims which we still abide by today. This includes the unconditional acceptance and respect for young people’s gender identity. We do not therefore take a view regarding the outcome of an individual’s gender identity development: rather, our focus is to provide a space for exploration of gender, to ameliorate any negative impacts on general development and to work with young people to think through all the options open to them. These principles remain central to the delivery of the service.

A comprehensive psychosocial assessment precedes any referral to the endocrine clinic for consideration of physical treatments. Whilst it is the case that most young people attending the service have a wish to pursue physical interventions, 59% of those attending under 15 chose not to pursue an endocrine clinic referral.

We recognise that there are strongly held views among patients and families and their representatives including those who wish for physical treatment to be offered earlier or by those who feel that physical treatments should not be offered to young people at all. The service has worked hard, and continues to do so, to maintain a balanced view in which we are fully aware of wider social, cultural, legal and political factors, but maintain a focus on an individual approach to care informed by the particular circumstances of each young person we see.

We do not limit or curtail assessments because of pressure to move swiftly to medical interventions. With complex cases, rather than truncating assessments, we will often extend the time given to trying understand what may be going on. Whilst the national specifications against which the service is commissioned describe an assessment phase of between 4 and 6 meetings, one outcome of assessment may be further assessment. Nevertheless, we are always mindful that gender dysphoria is not in and of itself a mental health diagnosis. The young people seeking support from our service frequently experience high levels of distress, victimisation and isolation related to their self-identified gender. We are committed to ensuring we work to recognise and meet the various needs of all the young people we see in this complex and contentious field." (continues)
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/our-gender-identity-development-service/

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/03/real-life-butterfly-families-transgender-child-tavistock-clinic

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/03/tavistock-centre-gender-identity-clinic-accused-fast-tracking-young-adults

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3413518-Observer-articles-on-fast-tracking-at-the-Tavistock-clinic

Total grooming. The TRA know exactly what they are doing. Not only are they getting our kids young in order to satisfy their paedophilic tendencies, they are alienating the child from the parent as a result. Even those parents who do affirm will have to acknowledge that their child will only be able to have a relationship with these groomers. This is the end goal. It’s not about the child. It is for the adult.

feminist is on the money as usual
Do we think that all this also applies to the clinic in Leeds?

"Examples of cases in the report include a girl from a family with a history of abuse of females. The mother’s anxiety about having a daughter was transmitted to her child, who resolved to change gender. Another girl felt “deeply guilty” after her brother died tragically, so she decided to give her parents “their son back” by changing gender. Some openly homophobic parents sought transition for their children because they were gay."

This is truly truly heart breaking and awful

Yes JackyHolyoake
We've had to train people to understand that these girls saw their abusers as their 'boyfriends' and 'protectors' and sought them out. This led the police and other agencies to dismiss the girls as 'complicit' in their own abuse and therefore fail to protect them. There's been a massive programme of training to ensure that professionals understand this and start protecting children instead of abandoning them to their fate.
But this principle is completely abandoned in relation to rapid onset gender dysphoria and we are expected to accept that these children are in no way influenced by others and that their 'decisions' are totally grounded, fully informed and competent when nothing could be further from the truth. The stupidity is enraging!

This is exactly why parents who are critical can no longer trust the very institution that states they will thoroughly explore other forces at play. Where do Gender critical parents go especially since the memorandum of understanding now rejects psychological interventions. How can parents help their distressed child when nobody cares. It is get them in, get them out without any thought to the damage they cause. I hope with all my heart that they will be sued. What price can you put on this though. I hope it is millions of damage worth if only to get the policy makers to take heed. Millions will not help me because you can’t buy a healthy body but at least it would get splashed out on the news for more and more people to bring a halt to this batshittery belief that it is in the child’s best interest. Rejecting oneself is a mental health issue. Why does this seem so obvious to me? So obvious to all of us except the policy makers. The TRA lobbyist have taken control of our kids. I hope this article will see a rethink as every time a concerned professional speaks out it helps our kids future

That report is so shocking.

Yet we so called “T*Fs have been saying this is what is happening for many months.

When is anyone in government, going to actually stop this abuse of children?

Of course no child is trans.
It's an adult decision made by an adult who is fully adult enough to realise the consequence of choosing a lifelong medical pathway with irreversible surgeries, for themselves.

And what does this remind us all of?

What was the response of the public authorities to the child sex abuse grooming gangs issue?

History is repeating itself in terms of the adults who work in our public authorities ... too scared to do anything about it.

With the grooming gangs they didn't want to "appear to be racist" and neglected the children because of it.

Now, with transgenderism, they don't want to "appear to be transphobic" and are neglecting the children because of it.