Times 16/2/1/9 Staff at trans clinic fear damage to children......

I think the kids, to a certain extent, do realise it's a script though. The script just provides a means to get the treatment. DD knew if she voiced any doubts it'd slow down the treatment pathway. That's the really scary thing.

Many individuals and organisations who claim to advocate for those who transgender constantly refer to innacurate suicide and self-harm statistics.
For vulnerable children and young people this will have a profound effect on them

In all my dealings with CAMHS, which are probably run in a similar way to GIDS, the clinicians are very in touch with the patients and know what they need, but funding stops them being able to provide the services required, so people get signed off, or signposted for the only treatment they provide, that probably won’t work.

Floral - maybe the report is the tipping point for change. The everyday clinicians will have a much clearer picture of what’s happening than those higher up, but they will not necessarily listened to. Hopefully, now it’s there on paper, something will be done about it.

Scripts can be unconsciously assimilated. It will be a complex dynamic.

Undoubtedly. But if you're hearing coaching from parents? If you're hearing the same phrases from so many apparently unconnected young people, what is the point where a clinician says "Hold on a minute, there's something not quite right here..."

If a lot of people were turning up at a pain clinic to try and access opiates and it was extremely obvious that there was a script being used by them to get hold of the drugs, there would be systems in place to halt what was a clear gaming of the system.

Scripts can be unconsciously assimilated. It will be a complex dynamic.

What I'm really wanting to drill down on, and I would really like a journalist to do this, and then someone in authority, is the fact that clinicians are recognizing the script among a large cohort and it is not stopping the system dead as it should.

If a young person searches on youtube, 'Am I transgender?' most of the people in the top ranked videos comment, 'if you are asking the question, you probably are'

Oh yes, I know the script is in place, and that the internet is creating lightspeed connections to it, and also that the children involved often know it's a script to expedite access to treatment because they have been groomed to believe that medical intervention will fix them.

What I'm really wanting to drill down on, and I would really like a journalist to do this, and then someone in authority, is the fact that clinicians are recognizing the script among a large cohort and it is not stopping the system dead as it should. If a lot of people were turning up at a pain clinic to try and access opiates and it was extremely obvious that there was a script being used by them to get hold of the drugs, there would be systems in place to halt what was a clear gaming of the system.

From the article:

"Some openly homophobic parents sought transition for their children because they were gay".

And we have Ruth Hunt of Stonewall and Owen Jones cheering this and decrying everyone who speaks out as a bigot. Forced homosexual conversion therapy is to be lauded, it seems.

mrskeats I really feel for you. It's a very odd situation to be in. Of course you can ask, DD is now definitely a girl/woman and a lesbian. She's been diagnosed and treated for OCD. The medication helped enormously. She still has some differences of opinion on gender than I do, but we can discus it now.

How old's your DC? How long have they identified as trans?

You're welcome to PM me if you want.

BetsyMoo Thankyou! I even asked on the times help page but they had no clue!

It's the script stuff that has me questioning how this can possibly be allowed to continue unchecked.

The 'script' has been in place for a long time, its been speeded up by the internet along with accessibility to medical and surgical interventions.

Young people struggling with dificult feelings and who believed 'something something was wrong' but without understanding what it was in the past might have had to wait for books or articles.

Stephen Whittle, Wiki:
"He knew he was romantically attached to other girls at school – he never told them, and so his love was not reciprocated – but he also knew that he was sexually attracted to men. On top of that was a strong desire to be a man, to grow a beard and to have a hairy chest. He had read articles about people like Della Aleksander and April Ashley who had had a sex change. In 1972, at the age of 16, whilst visiting his doctor about a sore throat he read about a female to male transman (FTM) transsexual person"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Whittle

Leanne Mills Dail Mail interview:
(extract)
"Born a boy and called Lee Antony, she began to feel she was in the wrong body at the age of four, when she tried on a Native American woman’s costume at a children’s dressing up party because ‘it made me feel like one of the girls’. At seven, she was being bullied at her all-boys primary school because she appeared so feminine and loathed football and playground rough-and-tumble.

By her early teens, she was secretly rooting through the wardrobe of her mother, Mavis, trying on her clothes.

‘I hated my male self and couldn’t even look at my body naked in the mirror,’ she says. ‘Dressing as a woman made me feel happy.’ (continues)

"Leanne — then still Lee, of course — buried her head in those delicate hands and wept at her father’s pronouncement. The teenager had learnt about transsexualism — a term coined only a decade or two before — from a Seventies book by a U.S. psychiatrist that was on her parents’ shelves. It was called Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex (But Were Afraid To Ask) and contained a short reference to transsexuals." (continues)
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6493959/Transsexual-warn-reality-transexual.html

I agree. They know what to say.

non I’m dealing with this in my family. Can I ask what has happened to your daughter now?

I think the kids, to a certain extent, do realise it's a script though. The script just provides a means to get the treatment. DD knew if she voiced any doubts it'd slow down the treatment pathway. That's the really scary thing.

This makes me absolutely fucking furious.

I have never heard calls for more support for ‘trans’ children from the likes of Mermaids and Stonewall. Quite the opposite in fact as SG tweeted there shouldn’t be a need for psychological support for children. The TRAs are so wrapped up in appropriating the word ‘woman’ and t*rf hunting there will be no sound from them. They give no shits about the children they are grooming. No campaigning for more resources, no campaigning for appropriate healthcare. No fucks given whatsoever.

It’s absolutely scandalous.

I agree. It is a total script. Words such as authentic self; essence; repression and if I don’t do this I will die are just a few of the narrative told to kids to use. They have been taught the words to use. The saddest bit about these words is also your parents don’t respect you. Leave them. We will be your family. You are important. Look out for you. If your family don’t accept you we will love you. It’s a fucking script and our kids don’t see it.

DD was absolutely groomed by older trans people online and later by older local transgirls. She created a whole new life story for herself, events were twisted to fit the trans narrative. I'm glad people at GIDs are noticing it.

I can't believe it's now 4 years since we were referred to CAMHS, nearly 7 years after DD first first identified as trans, and that it's only now that people in the clinic are speaking up. I had many off the record conversations with clinicians who didn't believe the party line of 'Your trans if you say you're trans'. However, they couldn't say anything officially.

As soon as the local CAMHS heard DD say she was trans, they washed their hands of her because it wasn't a mental health issue - despite the many obvious ASD/OCD behaviours. All we got was a green light to be referred to the Tavistock. I can well believe that the Tavistock don't have the time or funds to do a through evaluation of each referral. It's why I refused to get DD referred.

These are very vulnerable patients being referred, with complex issues, who have often been groomed to use threats of suicide to get faster treatment. Add to that the concern of parents who have been groomed to think their child will kill themselves unless they transition and you can see how highly charged the atmosphere is and how critical thinking gets forgotten and demands for faster treatment seen as bullying.

What would help end the abuse of children is vastly increased funding for youth mental health. A 2 year wait for an ASD assessment is not unusual, we only got tier 3 services from CAMHS once DD took an overdose. They can't afford to provide tier 1/2 services, I believe DD would never have got as far as an overdose if there were adequate interventions at an earlier stage. There would also be less of a feeling of having to go private for a diagnosis and treatment.

An historical perspective of another medical scandal:

4thwavenow.com/2017/02/10/lobotomy-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-miracle-cure/

Where did this idea of a 'gender identity' come from? Why should our identity be connected to 'gender' in any way? We have the biological reality of sex - we are male or female. Anything else is personality, and anyone, male or female, can have any personality. That is not dependent on our sex, much less our 'gender'.

significant thread with links to historical basis.
AngryAttackKittens comment:
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

BBC documentary shared by OP Sunkisses -Aug-18
"I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Indeed feminist
And not least wth the constant accusations that this is a transphobic forum.

It's the script stuff that has me questioning how this can possibly be allowed to continue unchecked.

What other field of medicine would have clinicians noticing the same on-script reasons from a large number of juvenile patients, and hear coaching on the script from parents, and nobody slam the brakes on quicker than you could say malpractice?

That's got to be an unavoidable scandal about to pop, surely?

TheSteveMilliband
@BetsyM00 how do you do sharetokens? The Times has published a lot lately on gender but I can't work out how to share the full article

You have to have a subscription! Then, under the photo at the top of the article, click on the email share button. The draft email that pops up will contain the share token link. Copy and paste.

In my darkest moments on why anyone would want to do this to our youth , I think about others with no emotional gain, to treat them as lab rats. They are pushing the boundaries of experimentation, on kids with mental health issues who they see as damaged and therefore not important. They are using the young people to perfect surgery; gain status; advance medical wonders such as womb implants by taking young trans men, i.e girls, wombs and their beautiful eggs to give to those with money, who can’t have kids and thus sacrificing these young people for their own needs and for money ofcourse. For guys though, I’m not sure what the drive is to trans them. My mind is not depraved enough but I’m sure it is something to do with this. Men are abusing our boys too because let’s face it what woman would touch a trans woman. Then we are left with the lowlife and depraved.

That article is so terribly sad. It highlighted some of the cases that you cannot believe goes on and yet they do. Mermaids hasn’t exactly pointed out that some dc are being sent to become ‘trans’ so they can hide the fact that they’re gay.

Absolutely tragic for these dc. Nhs money would be better spent separating these dc from their families for enough time to ensure the opinions expressed by them are their own and not dictated to them. Having come from a background of abuse where I was silenced completely and then questions were raised to my parents to ‘prove everything was ok’ even though it was my parents causing the abuse, I truly believe the dc need to be separated from these abuses to get to the truth. I also believe an automatic autism assessment should be triggered when dc mention becoming trans as there seems to be a high link with autism and the wish to become trans. That is a disabled persons thinking. That doesn’t mean we automatically give the dc what they feel they want.
I have no issue with trans people but I do have an issue with it becoming ‘fashionable’ and social media jumping in the bandwagon to influence these poor dc.

see also,
Miranda Yardley article, 'A History of Autogynephilia' (2017)
mirandayardley.com/en/a-history-of-autogynephilia/

'What Autogynephilia is, and what is it not; a brief note' (AUGUST 2016)
extract
"I wanted to explain some aspects of what autogynephilia is. It was initially posted as two separate post on MumsNet in response to questions about what it is, and a number of limiting preconceptions a number of people had (mainly that autogynephilia is confined solely to erotic cross-dressing) which limited their ability to get a grasp on this fascinating subject. I’ve posted it here as I didn’t want what I’d written to be lost forever in a long discussion thread. I will use this as a basis for a more comprehensive essay at a later point in time." (continues)
mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/