Mixed sex toilets

On that basis, society has a long long way to go before all boys/men are capable of leaving loos in a fit state for women.

I have visited countries where unisex single occupancy contained public toilets are the norm and men there do manage not to leave it in a disgusting state. We have unisex self-contained toilets where I work and ditto. Why do we want to foster a stereotype that men are incapable of not pissing all over the floor? Of course they are- just as capable of women, and if they do, they can wipe it up, same as women do.

Feministfairy that is not what I meant.
I support single occupancy and contained cubicles opening up into public spaces. I do not support shared toilets in the form they now take with stalls and a shared sink area.
I was responding to someone who said that single-sex toilets are a place of refuge from bullies. I was pointing out that, in my experience, they were not. In fact, they can be a place where bullying intensifies, because there is no teacher to supervise. I think that private contained toilets are more likely bullying in that case, although I think the impact will be limited.
To be clear, I do not support what is being done at this school.
I think the argument that women and men can't both use self-contained private facilities is pretty weak and relies on stereotypes of men as disgusting, unhygienic animals who are unable to avoid pissing on the floor. Of course they're capable of decent habits and if not, they need to be made to be.

Funkyfunkybeat12 Why do you state that mixed sex toilets are a strategy to reduce bullying as 'often bullying comes from members of the same sex' Forcing boys and girls to use toilets together is not a strategy that reduces bullying - there is no research to show this. Most of the alleged "evidence" in favour of this comes from the manufacturers selling toilets to schools and it mainly focuses on easier supervision - which is always a strategy for reducing bullying anywhere in a school.

We know that many girls and boys stop using mixed sex toilets, many girls having periods will avoid school on certain days if they can't deal with their period with privacy. Nobody ever addresses the issues for children of faiths who are not allowed to share facilities with the opposite sex?

Mixed sex toilets are cheaper than providing single sex facilities which is why they are popular but they do NOT reduce bullying - there is no evidence to support this.

I've been training DH not to leave splatter on the floor. We're 17 years into the training and he's good 90% of the time.
On that basis, society has a long long way to go before all boys/men are capable of leaving loos in a fit state for women.

We women have been trying for decades to reeducate men to put down the toilet seat after use. It hasn't worked. It's an inherent laziness

I would say that it is not really laziness. The word I'd use is inconsiderate or even bloody mindedness.

If we can't get people with willies to sit then they should clean up after.

Question: what does a boy do when he needs to s(h)it but one of his mates has just covered the seat in piss and all the others are in the same state?

Just sits in the piss? I bet not.

The common space with washbasins is also important for girls, a private area. I remember when I was sixteen, I had a MASSIVE period accident and had to run to the ladies' with my best friend. Luckily we were on a cruise ship and she was able to get me a complete change of clothing. But it would have been impossible to get me cleaned up just in am enclosed stall -- I needed the basins, room to change, etc. This is why we need privacy. It would have been impossible in a mixed sex area.

From the article link I posted above (German court rules that men can urinate while standing):

"Judge Stefan Hank agreed with an expert's report that uric acid had caused some damage to the bathroom's floor.

But concluding, he said men who insist on standing "must expect occasional rows with housemates, especially women" but cannot be held to account for collateral damage.

"Despite growing domestication of men in this matter, urinating while standing up is still common practice," he added."

I’m assuming that when girls have their periods they are dodging school.

@funkyfunkybeat: you are partly right but I think your goal of reeducating boys is a bit unrealistic. The two ways in which sharing toilets with males is annoying or irritating to women and girls are:
-- they leave the toilet seat up
-- they leave urine splatter on the floor
We women have been trying for decades to reeducate men to put down the toilet seat after use. It hasn't worked. It's an inherent laziness; we all tend to be lazy, not just males, but this is one particularly male laziness! My own son, 33 years old, does put down the seat but my son-in-law doesn't. Are parents ready to train their sons from boyhood? Mothers maybe. Not fathers.

As for urine splatter: the only way to combat this is to train boys to sit on the toilet, like we do. Is this realistic? I think not. I lived for 43 years in Germany, a country where many mothers DO try to get their sons to sit. My former landlady successfully trained her son. But all in all: it's an exception, and men who sit to pee in Germany have become a laughing stock. The taunt is "Sitzpinkler". And they have won the right to stand in German court: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30937492

Men stand to pee, floors get splattered. It's not going to change.

In the long run, we should be able to share toilets (as in using the same toilet, not be in the room at the same time) rather than deeming that men/boys are too disgusting for women/girls to ever use the same facilities. That’s very regressive and will never break down gender stereotypes.

The trouble is that there's what's ideal - where we want to be, and where we are now, and right now, for whatever reason, boys (and men) make a state of their toilets. Ideally, yes, men and boys would be able to not get pee everywhere, and we need a plan to get there, but I don't think having girls clean up after them so they can sit down is a plan - it's just letting the girls do the cleaning and that is regressive.

Personally I think that it's actually that we've socialised boys to stand up to wee, so it's physics, not nature . DP often sits, and DS1 sometimes does whereas DS2, despite being a bit short, is too enamoured with his penis to even think about sitting down. As a result, DS2 often leaves nasty surprises (which he is called to clean - but still, there's going to be some I miss) - whereas DP and DS1 are fairly pleasant to share a toilet with.

ShouldBe very often bullying comes from members of the same sex. Certainly when I was at school, I was more likely to be picked on by the girls than the boys. Boys who were bullied were also more likely to be picked on by fellow boys, rather than girls. The toilets and changing rooms were actually a place of danger rather than a refuge, as there were no teachers watching and the bullies could say what they liked.

I think they mean they hope it will reduce the bullying they've experienced in the boys toilets... by sacrificing the girls to 'police' it - just like sitting children boy girl boy girl was used when I was a child.

I think they should deal with their bullying problem rather than try to get the children to deal with it for them.

I went to 3 different schools as a kid, my children have been to even more, and none of the schools has had a bullying problem (my son is one of those rules followers who would absolutely complain to me if anyone was even putting tissues on the floor of the bathroom) - they all have single sex toilets (well, except in very young infants, where there's a bathroom off the classroom quite often) - and sure, in my schools there was some loitering - but it was an ancient, stinky (boys the worst) outside toilet block which was freezing. And in secondary, teachers would just occasionally prowl the corridors and flush any skyvers out - but they were generally friendly schools, with zero tolerance for bullying so it was just skyvers, not people being beaten up!

I am in favour of individual self-contained toilet cubicles but not unisex stalls. Re boys leaving toilets in an awful state- this is socialisation, not nature. We should not accept that this is a ‘natural’ part of being a boy any more than we should accept that girls are naturally more caring. Rather than being allowed to get away with disgusting behaviour, boys need to be taught and have it reinforced that you don’t leave toilets in a bad state. Presumably they don’t do this at home, where they will often have sisters and other family members that they share bathrooms with. In the long run, we should be able to share toilets (as in using the same toilet, not be in the room at the same time) rather than deeming that men/boys are too disgusting for women/girls to ever use the same facilities. That’s very regressive and will never break down gender stereotypes.

I don't think this would stop bullying at all and with girls missing school, it's clearly increasing it. Bullies will get the children somewhere else. Toilets used to be a refuge not a place to be bullied.

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

We do, actually! Enclosed cubicles, floor to ceiling with sinks. There's never any bother with them, but I think that may be particular to our school for reasons that would out me very quickly We are majority female, though, and not very tolerant of untidiness in general. Plus, small primary school where everyone knows everyone. A 2000-pupil school...I'm willing to bet you'd have more issues with that many staff.

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

Good point!!

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

Teenage boys leave loos in a horrible state though, even with entirely closed cubicles with a basin, it is still grim for girls to have to share with boys.
I have two daughters and they both want loos that are separate from boys. When i was growing up this was a given, why this step backwards ? The school says it is to stop bullying, apparently. How can this be true ? I am baffled.

Now in the Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6714753/Unisex-toilets-schools-leaving-girl-pupils-afraid-use-loo.html

Mixed sex spaces become men’s spaces by default. Has anyone written a PhD or article on what happens to young males in adolescence to get them dominating physical space in the way that they do? It seems to be a consequence of realising their increasing physical power and exploiting that in groups.

I despair for young women and girls having to navigate this daily in their schools, and fear for the impact it will have on their future ability to compete in the workplace. (Of course segregated education would address this problem...)

My workplace has dedicated unisex single room toilets with sink and hand dryer inside, so you’re not sharing the facilities with anyone - like disabled toilet provision. People seem to like them on the whole. Probably expensive though.

Why are all these Welsh schools bracing themselves for an onslaught of transgenderism?

My daughters are at a welsh school, the school apparently intends to shift to mixed sex toilets. Dd2 visited a different school recently that does have the mixed sex loos already, the loos are individual cubicles, with girls on one side, boys the other, all in one open space with communal sinks in the centre. Both dds have said they will not use the loos if theirs change to this.

Our school did this ages ago but not for trans rights, it was to stop kids loitering/going to loos when they should be in classes.

There was a swirly glass wall in front of the bathroom and cubicles. It was grim! Didn't think of it from a sexism perspective as everyone hated it. There was no proper door onto the corridor. It felt so exposed.

Tbf before the school remodel no one used the loos anyway and they were proper ones. It was 'embarrassing' to go to the toilet and even worse if people knew you were on your period. We had proper provisions (though they did honk) but we all avoided drinking through the day so we didn't need the loo.

Children are never consulted about this - just as women in the workplace are never consulted about the imposition of mixed sex toilets.

There is a relentless eradication of the facilities that people actually want and need and a totalitarian imposition of what certain (often highly dodgy) organisations and individuals want. Girls and women are mere collateral

The law in Wales remains clear re single-sex provision from the age of 8 but there are suggestions that the legislation might be 'outdated' (pah!) and need revisiting. Meanwhile LAs are carrying on regardless.
To be fair, some of the better-designed mixed-sex spaces with wash basin area open to the corridor probably do lessen bullying but the issue of privacy, dignity and safety remains. And much of the mixed-sex provision isn't well-designed / specifically designed. It's essentially just a change to the sign on the door and the addition of more sanitary bins.
Either way, no-one has asked the girls. Lleisiau Merched Cymru (Women's Voice Wales) intend to continue their informal consultation until Easter. If you want to participate, email in confidence to [email protected].