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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

On the Hijab and human faces.

207 replies

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 14/02/2019 12:39

Way back when I wore headcoverings myself as a Christian woman, I took a keen interest in what was taught about the Hijab, and what women themselves had to say about it.

I recall being particularly impressed by something I saw from a number of women about it being 'liberating' because it creates a focus on the face, on the woman as a human, rather than a sex object.

I took that at face value for some time as a good thought, but over time, I've begun to feel very uneasy about it.

For a start, there is an implicit understanding that a woman who is not covering her hair is a sex object, not a human. It all leads in to this notion that if a woman does not cover herself then she is not as worthy of respect as those women who do.

Then there is the understandable desire to be seen as a human, rather than simply subject to the male gaze. I feel it myself when I'm not wearing make up and just want to get on with my day - a sort of wish to be invisible to leering glances.

But why is there this strange notion that only our faces are 'human'? My whole body is part of what makes me human, the same as a man. How come a Muslim man is able to walk around with hair uncovered and still be seen as a human, but a woman does not have that ability unless we can only see her face? This 'disembodying' is so harmful.

Anyway, just some rolled around thoughts I had this morning while reading some things about the objections to hijab. I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

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Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 10:41

Can you respect my right to believe in whatever I want to please? Thank you.

That’s the second time you’ve said that, implying somehow that comments here are trying to deny your right to believe whatever you want, which hasn’t happened here. If you aren’t prepared for robust discussion about the title of this thread, then don’t join in. But don’t imply your rights are being infringed upon here because some of us don’t believe what you do.

Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 10:39

I am going to leave this thread now because it doesn't seem you want to have a discussion based on facts

Yes we do, and opinions, which vary even amongst Muslim women. You’re leaving because people are saying things about your religion you don’t like.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 10:39

Spanielmadness which is nuts really, because mantillas are often extremely ornate and pretty, so how could they not be distracting but hair would be? It's like saying a naked woman would be distracting, but if we put her in lacy undies, no one will notice! Grin

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WonderK · 15/02/2019 10:39

And I have no time or respect for any religion which uses the crimes of blasphemy or apostasy to force itself on non- believers

That's what you think my faith is, and I can understand why if you believe that about my faith, you have no respect for it. But could I ask of you one thing please? Can you respect my right to believe in whatever I want to please? Thank you.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 10:36

I am very open to people disagreeing with me, but what I'm not going to allow is for people to make factual negative statements about Islam without any evidence at all that are just not true. Because that leads to bigotry, hatred and physical violence.

I am going to leave this thread now because it doesn't seem you want to have a discussion based on facts.

I'm very happy though to meet people in person and have this discussion. PM me if you want to meet up and we can talk.

Spanielmadness · 15/02/2019 10:32

The mantilla is for modesty - to prevent men getting distracted in church by looking at some beautiful hair. Traditionally, unmarried women/girls wear a white mantilla as they are still ‘pure’. Once married and no longer so, a black mantilla should be worn.
Men should not cover their heads in church. It’s disrespectful!

MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 10:22

I'm not fighting for your rights.

I have no time for a religion that tells women they have to dress in a certain way and oddly the rules imposed on male dress don't require the same restrictions.

And I have no time or respect for any religion which uses the crimes of blasphemy or apostasy to force itself on non- believers.

Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 10:15

On another point, I am fed up of people not listening to Muslim women's voices. Especially from women who claim to be 'fighting' for our rights, completely ignore what we have to say. It feels like utter hypocrisy.

Not agreeing does not equal, not listening. You’ll have to learn to accept that someone may listen, and yet still strongly disagree or debate what you’ve said.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 10:11

WonderK, I'm not trying to tell you how to post, it was simply a polite pointing out that bolding your entire post isn't necessary.

Fwiw, I appreciate you on the thread, because yes, Muslim women's voices are important, and if you've read the previous page, I'm not interested in imposing bans or anything of that nature and I'm entirely content that there are certainly Muslim women who choose the Hijab because they are personally and religiously convinced, and that's fine.

I wanted to have a discussion about the hijab and led in with my conversations with Muslim women, and included some of my own experiences of headcovering. I made no comment on Islam as a faith, I specifically talked about women's own experiences. There really is no need to be quite so combative in a conversation on the topic.

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Racecardriver · 15/02/2019 10:09

@wonderuk are we talking about Turkic Islam here?

There is a broad distinction to be drawn between Turkic and Arabic Islamic practices. Turkic mosques/muslims tend to be much more civilised and tolerant of women. I come from a Turkic Islamic culture myself. No one wears a hijab outside of prayer and generally the attitude taken towards women isn’t particularly different towards the attitude taken towards men in terms of ‘modesty’.

Sureyouwill · 15/02/2019 10:06

Why did God suggest this sort of dress?

Racecardriver · 15/02/2019 10:05

The problem with the hijab is that it places the onus on women UK control when men think/want/do.

Sheelala · 15/02/2019 10:03

WonderK

Well, there are a great many Muslims who don't believe what you do at all, so you can't all be right. The majority around the world don't seem to agree with you, so whether you believe your interpretation to be correct or not is academic.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:59

Oxytocindeficient - I wasn't aware of the notification you get using @, my apologies.

On another point, I am fed up of people not listening to Muslim women's voices. Especially from women who claim to be 'fighting' for our rights, completely ignore what we have to say. It feels like utter hypocrisy.

WeRiseUp · 15/02/2019 09:58

All patriarchal religions are sexist and encode the ritualistic subjugation of women in their practices.

It's all very convenient to say 'God told us to do it'.

In a feminism and women's rights forum such an assertions will be unpicked.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:54

@Sheelala Right, so you know better than me about a faith (Islam) that I spent 15 years studying in an academic environment.

Sheelala · 15/02/2019 09:49

Islam is very very clear about giving people the freedom to choose whether they want to practice the faith or not, or parts of the faith or not.

Err earth to WonderK. What does it say about apostasy ? Homosexuals ? In any case given the slaughter that has and does go on over differing interpretations of religious texts, it's hard to take seriously anyone who says they are "very clear".

Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 09:47

As for making posts bold, I'll make bold whichever posts I want to, thank you very much

Of course you can, but if you ignore the polite requests and direction that it is considered rude, or combative, then you may not get any more responses. You’re not extending respect for people you are in discussion with. @ people is also not widely appreciated here, as we get unnecessary emails when we’re already in the thread.

MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 09:41

Oh and the tiny number of Christian women who might still wear a hat in church (not that I've seen any- even hats at weddings are less common) bears no comparison to wearing a hijab all the time.

And nuns are completely irrelevant to this- most Christian women are not nuns.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:40

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

You made a factual statement in your opening that in Islam women that don't wear hijab are treated less respectfully. I am asking you to provide evidence for your statement.

On another, you admit your conversations were a decade ago. I've just told you mine and my friends' experiences. You don't want to hear that but want to make sweeping judgements on Islam based on conversations you had a decade ago!

As for making posts bold, I'll make bold whichever posts I want to, thank you very much.

NeurotrashWarrior · 15/02/2019 09:38

Art Activist Barbie www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3508600-art-activist-barbie

NeurotrashWarrior · 15/02/2019 09:37

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

I've just started a thread some of you may find interesting regarding:

it it totally tied in to the male gaze, the sexualisation and objectification of women and the subjugation of women by men.

An interesting section of activism that's just started in our art galleries.

MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 09:37

Apostasy and blasphemy are punishable by imprisonment and even death in several Islamic countries. I'm sure those countries think that is correct per their religion.

I assume you have heard of Asia Bibi?

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 09:32

There's no need to bold your entire posts, WonderK.

I am talking about conversations I had with women about a decade ago, talking about their own feelings and motivations for wearing hijab. I'm not quite sure what evidence you'd like me to produce.
I'm sure you must be aware that the official teachings of a religion aren't the whole story in how people experience it.

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WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:30

Im talking about a dress code which is imposed by law in parts of the world, and by societal pressure in others. It's the control aspects and the reasoning behind that I'm interested in

That's a problem with that country's law then, NOT with Islam. Islam is very very clear about giving people the freedom to choose whether they want to practice the faith or not, or parts of the faith or not.