On the Hijab and human faces.

Gotcha? Are you on glue dear?
I thought I was having an adult discussion not juvenile point scoring

I'm sorry, are you actually suggesting to WeRiseUp that we can't discuss these things because of the current and topical threat to the accurate use of the word 'woman'? Because that would be a weird thing to suggest.
Your interpretation is certainly odd I’m saying there’s bigger fish to fry right now.
Critique away ladies, have fun. I’m off to bed for an early start.

FWR seems to be pretty critical of British cultural practices as far as I'm aware. It's only if you dare stray into critiques of Islamic practices that there's a big hoo ha. But tbf - it used to be mainly criticisms of transgenderism that were the big no no.

Weriseup Carry on critiquing love while the patriarchy takes away the very definition of woman from under your nose.
Floral a Christian headcovering or hijab/niqab in the current climate? No, not getting your point.
Btw my point was made in response to another poster, in that context it was about how women are perceived by society not a few random women on this thread.

We choose to see it as particularly bad where the culture is different to our own, which allows us to avoid looking at our own behaviour.
Or we choose to ignore oppression if it's happening in another culture. 'A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere' Martin Luther King

won’t take long for you to experience the contempt from women who disapprove.

Are those women feminists? Mumsnetters?

Stick on a hijab/ niqab for the day, won’t take long for you to experience the contempt from women who disapprove.

I think there is a place to critique all manifestations of patriarchal oppression. Last time I checked many followers of Islam in the UK (at least in my neck of the woods) are from Eastern Europe and pale-skinned anyway.

I just don't get this thing where feminists have to compromise principles to be super nice to a particular group.

It isn't just followers of patriarchal religions. There has been so much bullshit about how feminists who criticise the sex trade actually make the women caught up in it feel bad - therefore such feminists are 'Swerfs'... ('sex worker exclusionary radical feminiets) and are somehow worse than the pimps, punters and traffickers who profit from the sex trade.

I am suprised no one has yet coined 'MERFs' to smear feminist as defined by 'excluding muslims'... You heard it here first.

Yossarian22 what does your response even mean?
In simple terms it means the most effective way to engage people is to be with them not against them.
How did women in your society change? I think the most effective and long lasting change comes from within societies not from those outside preaching the ‘right view’. While muslim women are treated with contempt for choosing to cover up, I think they will cling to that identity even more.
The support for women to escape the shit they’re forced to endure will come mainly from other women. Tolerance and support.

A small proportion of the Muslim girls each year come wearing hijabs in reception (so aged 4/5 years old) in our local school. Personal choice about that seems unlikely to become a factor for them as they grow up in that context.

Yossarian22 what does your response even mean?

Then speak out with them, with the ones who are oppressed don’t shirk at the sight of how many are roaming major cities these days. No one is asking you to be polite, be tolerant.

Threads were Muslims have been referred to as 'animalistic' nothing alienating about that?

I can understand the anger and frustration but alienating women in this country many of whom have strong ties with women in oppressive countries, serves no purpose.
It sends the message women who choose to be covered are despised wherever they may be, not much else.

I just don't get it, if you know that other women are oppressed by this why on earth defend it? It's like those women that carry out fgm on young girls, they experience the pain but then are prepared to do it to innocent children.

I grew up in a culture where girls married young (due to poverty) they had no right to divorce and no right to contraceptive. I've seen women living desperately sad lives because of these social norms. I suspect previous generations even lost their lives but within my life time, this attitude towards women has changed is no longer tolerated.

I'm sorry, but I can't just be polite about these things. It maybe sensitive and it may even offend but surely we need to speak out. Do you think there are no women living in this country who suffer oppression?

Who is doing this? < wide eyed innocence>
Try reading mumsnet from the perspective of a brown, muslim woman. Its alienating. Read the hateful crap thats been spouted on these boards over the last few days.

alienating women in this country

Who is doing this?

I can understand the anger and frustration but alienating women in this country many of whom have strong ties with women in oppressive countries, serves no purpose.
It sends the message women who choose to be covered are despised wherever they may be, not much else.

No. But here in the UK I don’t see much difference between a woman who says she freely chooses to cover her head, and a woman who says she freely chooses to change her name and title upon marriage.*

I live in London, not all women cover their heads because they are free to do so. There women living in this country who are forced to.

Please survey women in this country and let me know what percentage actually change their name and wear a wedding ring due to them wanting acceptance from their community. If there are people like this, they're a dying breed.

Absolutely we should do it in spirit of tolerance etc but I find it difficult being tolerant when I know women and girls are dying in other parts of the world because of these beliefs.

Real freedom would be wearing whatever the hell you want to and not ever being subject to sexual objectification or harassment because of it.

This^^

It seems consistent across all the cultures I can think of that the more uncomfortable or restricting clothing choice is reserved for or required of women, rather than men. It’s depressing.
I get that adults may want to go along with those expectations for lots of reasons, often with a complex relationship to context and their personal choice. I wish kids could just be left to be kids without slotting into the right gender stereotype for as long as possible though.

*What I am cautious of is ignoring the patriarchal rituals that white women perform while telling Muslim women that they are oppressed because they wear head-dress.

Seriously? There's no doubt that there's still some way to go in terms of women's rights in the west but are we saying that this stuff is as bad as what happens in women in some parts of the world?*

No. But here in the UK I don’t see much difference between a woman who says she freely chooses to cover her head, and a woman who says she freely chooses to change her name and title upon marriage.

Both are done as outward symbols of “good” behaviour. Both confer status within the community. A good muslim woman following her communities guidelines with regard to sex and modesty, and a woman following her communities guidelines with regard to sex (fidelity) and family.

Women on here repeatedly say changing their name is something they do out of free choice, that they are proud to do. Why is that any different to a woman who says the same about a hijab.

Out of interest, sikh turbans are about class, not religion, or modesty. Turbans were a signifier of higher or lower class. So a sikh leader decreed all men should wear turbans, then class distinction would be erased. Women cover their heads to show solidarity with men.

So turbans were a political equaliser. Like pp have said, if wearing a hijab was truly that empowering, men would do it. Same as men should be “proud” to take a womans name on marriage.