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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender-blind’ rules urged in row over school toilets

29 replies

Igneococcus · 13/02/2019 06:52

Lynne Short has talked to her teenage son and his mates and they say gender neutral toilets are just fine and dandy, so that's that:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-blind-rules-urged-in-row-over-school-toilets-0blqgflrs?shareToken=119f251d209943d28710613cac0d995f

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Daughterofmabel · 13/02/2019 19:11

Excellent post Charlieparley

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 18:17

Feel free. You'll find more details and other arguments against the essentially illegal practice of mixed-sex toilets in the Children's Rights Impact Assessment from Women and Girls in Scotland.

I could have added just how many of our girls are already self-excluding from school when they're menstruating, but didn't have the stats to hand (they are staggering).

Dont even want to think about how much worse these numbers will get, now that schools are deliberately creating an even more hostile environment for girls by ignoring their specific sex-based needs entirely and where it seems that the adults who should care about them never even bother to consider these needs at all and cheerlead denying children their rights by dismissing all objections as fear-mongering or old-fashioned.

WhatTheNightBrings · 13/02/2019 17:53

@TerfectlyImperfect

Thanks for posting that article. My children are at school in one of the council areas in the article and are affected by the 'Schools for the Future' new build scheme. I have raised concerns with the school management team, the council and the education department about the mixed-sex toilet plans and have hit a brick wall every time. I'm glad it's finally getting the exposure it deserves.

CallMeWoman · 13/02/2019 16:57

And me, Charlie. Absolutely brilliant comments. Star

frankexchangeofviews · 13/02/2019 16:46

Charley do you mind if i re-use that that post ?

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 13/02/2019 16:45

I'm glad to hear it KHTeach I was like 👀

Toilets have always been dodgy, as in places where bullying happens. I know I tried to avoid the main loos at secondary. I know children that literally will not go at all at school.

Maybe some children aren't fussed, maybe no one cares if they are. Maybe minds will be changed after the girls have mopped up piss for a few months. Maybe boys will learn to be more careful.
I really don't know what's wrong with keeping loos single sex and having some uni sex alternatives.

My husband is a nightmare and I would have single sex loos in my own house if I could. Grin

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 16:32

KHTeach We have mixed sex loos at the school I teach at and there are no problems

With respect, you simply cannot know that. All of these pronouncements that there are no problems, rely on the child or the children raising their distress at having to - in breach of their human rights btw - share toilets with the other sex with a staff member, for the staff member to take any notice and not just dismiss her outright or minimise her objections and to then mention this to their colleagues.

And all of that in a school that may have made it abundantly clear to children and staff alike that this is done to be kind to gender questioning children. Any girl complaining is therefore immediately outing herself as unkind.

Even worse, given that all of the guidance issued by trans rights orgs on the treatment of children who identify as trans frames girls' distress at losing their human right to privacy, dignity and safety and their absolute right to asserting their boundaries around their own bodies against all male children, however they identify, as problematic, disrespectful or unjustified, it takes a brave girl indeed to raise her voice and say I don't want to share my toilets with boys.

I have asked the many, many children I meet every school day about this and have not once had a girl saying I'm fine with this. I have however heard from a large number of girls (and boys) who are self-excluding from mixed-sex toilets in other schools, who just don't drink throughout the day and wait till they're back home. Would you know about these children if they never tell you?

Also, 60% of our girls have either experienced sexual harassment at school themselves or have witnessed it, even more girls have experienced sexual harassment outside of school. Every single school day a child is raped in UK schools and we know from rape statistics that at least 90% of them will be female children.

The vast majority of these girls feel distress at being forced to share with males in places where they are in a state of undress and therefore feel particularly vulnerable.

Are you seriously expecting such a girl to single herself out from her peers and to disclose her assault to a teacher just so she can have her legally mandated single-sex toilet back?

Child victims of sexual abuse have a right under Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to have the state - and by extension you as their teacher - help them recover from abuse. A huge part of that is providing single-sex sanitary and changing facilities for all children, that respect their sex-based needs and their rights - as provided for in the Equality Act 2010 - to these single-sex spaces.

Another important step in aiding the recovery of sexual abuse victims (the vast majority of whom are female) is respecting the boundaries around their own bodies (that we spend so much time teaching our children they are entitled to have and to assert). And to not just listen to their views when they pluck up the courage to speak up, but to actively seek out their views before embracing these harmful practices that breach the human rights of children.

Your "no problem" mixed-sex toilets are in violation of national laws (Equality Act 2010), of the school building regulations and international laws (the human rights of children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child). I'd say that's a huge fucking problem. But maybe that's just me.

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 16:21

If a child has a medical reason to go during lesson time that is fine.

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 16:20

Not literally in the loos. Just that there is more staff around at playtime so they just keep an eye out to make sure there is no bullying ect ect

GerryblewuptheER · 13/02/2019 16:15

I would say having to supervise toilet access is a problem tbh

What if a boy has a uti and a girl needs to clean up and has to go mid lesson?

Would that still he problem.free or would both be humiliated

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 13/02/2019 16:15

You supervise the kids in the loos?!!!!!!!
Woah
Now that's a first for me, I've been out of teaching for a few years, but teachers never were expected to do that. Playground duty yes
Toilet duty no

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 15:59

Yr 5 x

Bittermints · 13/02/2019 15:52

What age are the children you teach, KHTeach? This would play out very differently in primary schools, I surmise.

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 15:45

And teachers have single sex toilets.

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 14:46

We have mixed sex loos at the school I teach at and there are no problems. Children go at playtime and lunchtime when staff are able to supervise.

Vixxxy · 13/02/2019 14:34

That woman says adults have created a problem with fear and segregation.

All baseless fears of course. NAMALT, they are as rare as unicorns the pervy/entitled/whatever types.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/02/2019 13:45

My dds school seems to be instigating a change to mixed sex loos. Both dds hate the idea with a passion and I know will drink less, and not use the loos. From what I hear the washbasins will be communal. I am going to go in and chat to the school and see what they say about it.

butteryellow · 13/02/2019 10:57

This is why women should be toilet designers - so many men just don't think about what's needed in a women's toilet.

I was in a Macdonalds toilet yesterday, and it was one of the ones with a massive (a good foot) gap at the bottom, and top - the top of the door was 5' (I know, because I am 5') - ie. anyone walking in the toilet could just wander up and peer in at people. The average woman would have to try a little bit (height 5'4). The average man would just be looking over the door by default.

This is why toilets should be sex segregated, because whilst I don't want anyone looking at me wee, I really don't want blokes in the same room just seeing me by mistake - and I'm sure that the vast majority of them don't want to see me sitting on the loo either.

TerfectlyImperfect · 13/02/2019 09:56

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/826939/womens-campaign-group-calls-for-urgent-investigation-into-gender-neutral-toilets-at-tayside-schools/

I’ve posted this elsewhere but it’s relevant here. Seems it’s not all fine and dandy...

Igneococcus · 13/02/2019 09:43

I can't get my comment posted under that article. I had one pending for about 3 hours now. I don't quite get how they decide which comment section needs moderating and which doesn't.

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Ringdonna · 13/02/2019 09:25

Unfortunately this genie is well out of the bottle and there is no going back now.

Babdoc · 13/02/2019 09:09

The rules here in Scotland are that unisex toilets must have floor to ceiling enclosed cubicles, ie no gaps under or over doors, and the wash basin and sanitary bin must be inside each cubicle, not in a communal area outside.
If this is adhered to, then there’s no problem, as each toilet is a separate self contained room.
However, many schools and public buildings have simply labelled their existing communal toilets as “gender neutral” in defiance of the law. I have complained in writing about my local theatre doing this, and not had even the courtesy of a reply.

happydappy2 · 13/02/2019 09:03

Thankfully every comment under that article is pointing out the madness of depriving girls single sex provision.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 13/02/2019 07:15

We never tried so hard for gay kids, children with autism, all the other groups that need help and acceptance. Why this bulldozing of safeguarding for a group that didn't exist 10 years ago? Trans kid are created, the entire movement is regressive, sexist and homophobic.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 13/02/2019 07:13

No such thing as gender neutral, just mixed sex.

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