Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender man becomes pregnant after IVF wants baby to be declared motherless on Birth certificate

137 replies

OtepotiLilliane42 · 13/02/2019 03:33

This is also covered in the Telegraph but I cannot access their article.
We have a similiar case in NZ, and I've put the links below. Scout had a baby girl just before Christmas. I am glad that everything went well for Scout and their daughter, but the denial of biological reality by Scout (especially in the Spinoff article) and the transgender parent in the Mail article is really sad. The media in NZ hasn't helped either by its decision to report Scout's story on Scout's own terms. In real life Dads don't get pregnant and have babies, at least human ones don't.
Other transgender parents in the UK have recorded themselves as the mother apparently, so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6698303/Transgender-man-pregnant-IVF-battles-child-declared-motherless.html

thespinoff.co.nz/parenting/04-07-2018/im-pregnant-and-im-going-to-be-a-dad/

www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/baby/109558179/kiwi-dad-scout-barbourevans-gives-birth-to-daughter

OP posts:
HalfBloodPrincess · 16/02/2019 11:25

Wish I was. This is one section but it’s throughtout the notes (others have got personal details on)

Transgender man becomes pregnant after IVF wants baby to be declared motherless on Birth certificate
HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 16/02/2019 11:10

HalfBlood are you joking? This makes me so mad- I AM A WOMAN and a mother, that's not inclusive of men because they can never give birth and that's a FACT!!! Aghhhhh.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 16/02/2019 11:07

This is about misogyny and men's eternal issue with the fact that we are the ones who can grow babies, which has caused us not a little bother these last few millenia.

If they can't grow babies in men or in vats (yet) they move instead to remove the language from us and therefore our connection to it that way.

It's a sort of aggressive jealousy. I can't have it so why should you? I want it. You have to share it. Who are you to say I can't?

The term mother, like woman, girl and female is a concept as old as the dawn of time and understood by all mammals. We would have known what a mother was, as a species, before we had language.

It's got nothing to do with gender or stereotypes or how you act or anything at all, it relates to biology.

As with everything else this must be verboten.

So we have lost woman and girl. Female is nearly gone. Now mother.

The reason women get so upset about this stuff I think is that in the thousands of years of global patriarchy, our biology was the one thing we had, in common, it was the cause of our oppression, but it also was distinctly ours, and the ability to birth children, even though used against us so hideously and still is, is still a pretty amazing thing. That men CANNOT do.

Of course they want to devalue it, take the language, remove it from us. They couldn't do it literally > men cannot get pregnant and give birth. So they do it by other means.

The fucking ridiculous thing is that everyone knows, EVERYONE knows what girl, woman, female and mother mean.

If they want a word they can have maternal which for me has much more gendered overtones. I describe my husband as being very stereotypically maternal quite a lot, he is more so than me. That's fine. Have the gendered words FFS, maternal, feminine, ladylike, what the fuck ever, most of us never wanted or liked them anyway.

To give men the factual, universal stuff that is all we really have is just, I'm getting really angry about this.

And the consequences of dehumanising women in this process and disconnecting us from it may well be a shift in the overton window>> hello commercial surrogacy, hello more restrictive abortion laws etc

e.g. in nature the idea of taking a newborn animal from its mother is scary and horrifying. In humans, most people still react quite viscerally to the idea of taking a newborn from it's mother, which is why surrogacy makes so many people feel really quite uncomfortable.
Change the language and you are simply taking the baby from one of its parents. Why not? One parent is as good as another, in fact any person is

I am not tying to offend or upset anyone who has adopted children or other similar situations
BUT we need to be able to say that pregnancy and birth are a pretty major thing, that newborns only really know their mother having been literally a part of her for months, that we don't really know if any person is really as good as the one who just gave birth to them, how much they mind being put somewhere else... The fact that we don't know is already a product of misogyny, the idea that say in the 60s a baby was better off in a cot down the corridor by itself than with its mum. Our role and importance is already devalued. Soon to be removed completely.

And also when women speak others say sarcastically "won't someone think of the children?" >> yes because we do, don't we. Of course fathers do too and some mothers are shit and abusive but in general the health and wellbeing and protection of societies young falls to women, to mothers. You can see this clearly in the press whenever anything goes wrong. Who benefits if we are pushed away?

ChattyLion · 16/02/2019 09:55

Princess ugh. Like when they put ‘gender’ where it should be ‘sex’. I always cross it out on forms. I find it particularly offensive when the NHS only offer ‘pregnant person’ being as how we do all know they need to have a very clear grasp of male and female biology in order to practice medicine. It’s such pretence. Are they actually surprised every time a new ‘person in labour’ comes on the ward that it’s actually a woman?

‘Oh look Barbara, well blow me down if it’s not another woman coming in with a baby in her uterus that’s going to come out soon. Who’d have thunk it? That’s going to really skew our statistics isn’t it! Looks like no ‘people’ have come in at all ever. Only women!’

You could speak to your local PALS about that wording or maybe Fair Play for women, Let a woman speak or your local branch of ReSisters could take it up for you if you want to be anonymous?

www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/nhs-services-and-treatments/what-is-pals-patient-advice-and-liaison-service/

ChattyLion · 16/02/2019 09:42

Sorry about my spellchecker there Grin
‘Maternal-feral interaction’.

HalfBloodPrincess · 16/02/2019 09:42

This is infuriating. My maternity notes already have ‘pregnant person’ rather than mother. It’s a joke.

ChattyLion · 16/02/2019 09:38

I wouldn’t want parent 1 and parent 2 as the default fields for everyone on birth certificates. I think it’s misogynistic to have no possibility of a woman being recorded as a mother, only as ‘parent’.

A mother who gave birth has done something highly significant for the child and that should be recorded as a fact. It’s not neutral information to the child or to the mother who gave birth.

‘Mother’ on the BC also refers to the mother’s unique role for past 9 months and shouldn’t be confused with her intention or ability or whatever to be a parent going forward and to take legal responsibility which is only what ‘parent’ on a BC describes instead. We don’t use BCs to record a genetic contribution either (rightly IMHO) so mother is really about pregnancy and birth.

People who are adopted have a BC with their mother on, so do people born via surrogacy have the surrogate’s name in the ‘mother’ field. (This is why the pre-woke terminology was ‘surrogate mother’) As I said above the BC is the child’s document the child should be able to know their origins and this also acknowledges the woman’s role in pregnancy and birth. This mother field is clearly relevant whether the woman has a genetic link to the baby or not (if she gave birth, she should still go down as ‘mother’ on the BC even if she used a donor egg) because a mother is the one who gave birth.

Why are we apparently so keen to devalue and trivialise pregnancy and birth? Is it because only mothers/women can do this? Because we seem to think genetics is so important these days that somehow we are encouraged think growing and carrying a baby to term is really trivial? Is that because dna has a male contribution and that’s why we think of genetics as so important? Pregnancy is all and only about the woman so we need to ignore and devalue that? Is it because we don’t know much or aren’t encouraged to see the importance for woman and child of maternal- feral interaction? Is it because of trying to further normalise and legitimise surrogacy, which removes the baby from its mother at birth?
Why does it not matter that some women see the recognition of pregnancy and birth as very important truthful fact to record on a BC? Why’s it wrong that some women see being recorded as a mother on the BC a very important recognition of their unique kind of parenting they will be doing with their baby? That ‘mothering’ is in some way different to parenting or fathering?

If this case is won and we do take ‘mother’ out of the BC options for recording then I wonder if in future will there be campaigning to put ‘mother’ back into the certification- if it ever transpires that men are able to have womb transplants and carry babies to term? Surely they won’t want to be called Parent 1 or 2?

But also this case Isn’t just about not having to put down ‘mother’ on the BC. It’s also around putting down ‘Father’. I haven’t thought through the implications of that yet but there is that to consider too. I wonder what fathers (who may or may not be on BC or whether or not they have parental responsibility) think about this as a potential change to BC in all its various aspects and implications?

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 16/02/2019 08:08

Did anyone see Jeremy Vine yesterday when they discussed this?

No critical thought whatsoever or that a BC is a factual record for the child. They claimed that it should be changed the parent 1 and parent 2.

ChattyLion · 16/02/2019 00:25

Oink it depends how the donation is done if a man can then be a father. If a sperm donation is just a private arrangement between friends, then the donor can go on to claim legal fathers rights over the baby.

But if a sperm donor is from a fertility clinic then he will have signed a consent form for his donation. Legally this means he is a donor and can’t be seen as the father of a child born as a result.

magicmole · 15/02/2019 11:00

Had a quick look through the thread but don't think anyone's shared this article yet from the Telegraph coverage on the case.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/mother-no-longer-gender-specific-term-government-lawyers-say/

"Lawyers instructed by the Government yesterday told the High Court that a man “can be a mother”"

GrumpyGran8 · 14/02/2019 13:25

I struggle to understand this. My uncle is a transsexual (female to Male, had full surgery in the mid 90s) and is disgusted by/absolutely rejects every female part of himself. He won’t even tolerate old photos or memories of when he was female.
I do too Oldbrownshoe. The only trans person I've known personally (MtF) transitioned in the early 90s and had a terrible couple of years. First she went through, and won, a nasty custody battle with the - by now - ex-wife. Then her bottom surgery went wrong and she suffered months of pain and urinary problems before things were put right. Now turning 60, she's doing the typical woman's work of caring for her disabled partner while holding down a job (which is why I respect her pronouns - she's earned it.)

These old-school transsexuals really walked the walk, didn't they? No "Oooh, I feel so much like a woman today - I'll pop on a dress and some lippy, and report anyone who misgenders me." for them!

FlyingOink · 14/02/2019 13:25

Fathers not father's sorry autocorrect gave me a greengrocers' apostrophe

FlyingOink · 14/02/2019 13:23

Is it entirely to legally qualify as having a protected characteristic? Because I don't have a "LesbianCard". (To be fair, if you could see me, you'd agree I wouldn't need one) Grin
Genuinely, is there any benefit to having the ability to change your legal sex, other than for vanity or personal validation?
It clearly impacts on others who interacted with the person in their previous legal sex. Those who were born to, married to, related to, all have to change their reality and their past to suit. Those who were defrauded by or assaulted by or murdered by have their realities altered. History is changed. People are posthumously transed. Criminal records are inaccessible, business history is a minefield.
And the fact remains that now marriage is open to any two adults who want to participate in it (close relatives notwithstanding) there are no rights, positive or negative, that a trans person doesn't have in comparison to anyone else.
This child, OTOH, seems to have no rights.

Finally, if the sperm donor wanted parental responsibility and went through the courts, would the child have two father's (and still no mother, assuming this case is successful)?

EntirelyAnonymised · 14/02/2019 13:18

Warped

FlyingOink · 14/02/2019 13:13

Legal documents should never support a fiction. If the parent is not honest, how are they going to explain to the child where they came from? Will the child be expected to believe their Mother abandoned them? This has huge implications for the child.I don’t understand why some trans people feel the need to obliterate the facts of their past.
This is where it went off course. Birth certificates should never be changed. Legal fictions to support hiding ones past were always a terrible idea.
There is no need for the GRA now. Call yourself what you like, marry whoever will have you. No need to falsify documents.
I have never understood the argument for this. Will a transphobe (or more likely a confused homophobe) ask for your documents before he beats you up in the street? Nope. Will your employer ask for your birth certificate, ever? Nope. Is your employer legally permitted to discriminate against you if you declare yourself trans? No, but they're not allowed to discriminate if you declare yourself pregnant and they still do that. What does a GRC defend you from, now?
What is the value in terms of legal protection from discrimination in having a GRC? Access to women's spaces is largely done on bolshyness and entitled behaviour anyway...?
Why is this mother entitled to be legally known as a man? What purpose does it serve apart from vanity?
IANAL and this is a genuine question.

LambChopsMcGee · 14/02/2019 13:13

@OtepotiLilliane42 I'm from Otepoti as well... Though living in the UK. I wonder if we know each other. I'd love to make more connections on this in NZ if you'd like to DM me!

FlyingOink · 14/02/2019 13:05

When the GRC was put into law there was no indication that having a GRC would affect someone else’s legal paperwork too. Seems odd that the law to be reviewed here would not be the Gender recognition act.

Why are we keeping the GRA hanging about now that we have (rightly!) got same sex marriage and civil partnerships, equal pension rights etc. Trans people have the same rights as everyone else. What is GRC legally needed for, apart from personal validation? Passports and driving licences are self ID already.

A child’s birth certificate is their own document. Not their parents document. Facts pertinent to the child must be recorded.

This, 100%

ChattyLion · 14/02/2019 12:55

When the GRC was put into law there was no indication that having a GRC would affect someone else’s legal paperwork too. Seems odd that the law to be reviewed here would not be the Gender recognition act.

Why are we keeping the GRA hanging about now that we have (rightly!) got same sex marriage and civil partnerships, equal pension rights etc. Trans people have the same rights as everyone else. What is GRC legally needed for, apart from personal validation? Passports and driving licences are self ID already.

A child’s birth certificate is their own document. Not their parents document. Facts pertinent to the child must be recorded. The person who gave birth is legally recorded as mother, and this person did give birth to their child.

Couldn’t a parent just have an open conversation with their child at an appropriate age about why they don’t feel comfortable about some/many of the things that go along with the concept of being a ‘mother’...(like lots of other women do) and just leave their child’s birth certificate alone to be an accurate record for the child’s own purposes?

Bowlofbabelfish · 14/02/2019 07:24

but should the sex of the parent be significant from the child’s perspective ?

Yes. Some genetic diseases are passed ONLY down the Male or female line. Imagine a child presenting with symptoms to a doctor twenty years down the line, and them saying ‘well it might be condition A or B, lets look at your family history...’

Accurate census recording is important for society, it’s inportant for history, it’s important medically. The document is for the child, not to validate the parent

Sarahjconnor · 14/02/2019 07:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

7Days · 14/02/2019 00:25

This whole circus is undermining reality. Reality that has existed from the dawn of time, before we had the ability to stand upright.
Ridiculous sophistry, designed to confuse and put every ordinary person on the back foot.

This bloody narcissistic bullshit is robbing the world of a generation of idealistic activists. The environment could do with a dose of youthful energy. I hear the political world is hitting some bumps too.
I have always quite liked each wave of dangerhairs, they make a difference and the world is the better for it.

But get your heads out of your arses. Look at science and facts and work with them. You may as well demand the methane from cows arses does not trap solar energy, because of your hurt feelings.

Voice0fReason · 13/02/2019 23:42

No, just no.
It's your child's birth certificate, not yours.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 13/02/2019 20:33

Yes

I think so

All mammals know what a mum is

This is basic stuff

The drive for men to undermine what a mother is, is hardly new. through history they have tried to reduce, remove, divert etc the name "mum".

But all mammals know what a mother is.

Yes some mothers are shit
Bit they are still mothers
The pregnancy birth thing is massive

We extend the term sometimes

But to break it so, is no

From me, a very not maternally inclined woman who had kids
They are born of my body

That is not a nothing.

MIdgebabe · 13/02/2019 19:51

Just a thought.
.i think that the terms man and woman are important signifying the physical differences , but generally if we could avoid those terms it might make sex sterotypes harder

What do we lose when we term the mother and father and just have parents rather than have the sex indication in the term? From the perspective of the mothers health it is important, but should the sex of the parent be significant from the child’s perspective ?

Swipe left for the next trending thread