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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mixed-sex toilets in schools - children's actual views?

132 replies

Oldstyle · 12/02/2019 19:19

Do we know what kids actually think about this? Planners & policy-makers seem to feel it's not a problem, and that it lessens bullying (no idea how) although it is currently illegal in Wales for children over 8 years old apparently.
Lleisiau Merched Cymru/Women's Voices Wales are asking for feedback from girls (or boys) who have mixed-sex toilets in their schools. Ideally from Wales but also from other parts of the UK. So is there any real-life evidence either way?

OP posts:
TerfectlyImperfect · 13/02/2019 22:51

Primary school kids only allowed to use toilets at break and playtime seems wrong to me anyway, downright cruel in fact.

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 22:41

UNESCO identifies a lack of single sex toilets in schools as a major barrier to girls' access to education worldwide.

Education plans should therefore make it a priority to provide all schools with single sex toilets.

When this is seen as a priority in other countries around the world, why is the UK going in the opposite direction?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 13/02/2019 22:37

Great posts Charlie 100% agree with everything you said.

AnyOldPrion · 13/02/2019 21:36

My 14 year old DS refused to use the new mixed sex toilets in the shopping centre near us.

He’d be very unhappy if they had them at school.

Dothehappydance · 13/02/2019 21:19

Alexa I actually hadn't thought about that and I wonder now where the Muslim girls go. It is a school with a significant % of pupils for who English is not their first language. (Twice the national average) I know this doesn't equate to the number of Muslim pupils but it is likely to be higher than the national average. I certainly see a significant number of girls wearing headscarves walking to school. (I live right by it).

I'll ask my DD what her friends do.

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 21:19

I'd also like to ask, how do you define "problems"? You stated on the other thread that staff have to supervise the toilets, which indicates multiple problems to me. My DC attended a primary school with well over 600 pupils in an area with some of the highest numbers of deprived children in the country and they have never had to supervise the single-sex toilets outside of infant school (where staff may be needed to help some of the children).

You clearly haven't considered the distress of children at having to share with the other sex as a problem or the issue of children self-excluding from the toilets or menstruating girls from school, so what are you problem-free of?

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 21:11

And here is what I said on the other thread:

KHTeach We have mixed sex loos at the school I teach at and there are no problems

With respect, you simply cannot know that. All of these pronouncements that there are no problems, rely on the child or the children raising their distress at having to - in breach of their human rights btw - share toilets with the other sex with a staff member, for the staff member to take any notice and not just dismiss her outright or minimise her objections and to then mention this to their colleagues.

And all of that in a school that may have made it abundantly clear to children and staff alike that this is done to be kind to gender questioning children. Any girl complaining is therefore immediately outing herself as unkind.

Even worse, given that all of the guidance issued by trans rights orgs on the treatment of children who identify as trans frames girls' distress at losing their human right to privacy, dignity and safety and their absolute right to asserting their boundaries around their own bodies against all male children, however they identify, as problematic, disrespectful or unjustified, it takes a brave girl indeed to raise her voice and say I don't want to share my toilets with boys.

I have asked the many, many children I meet every school day about this and have not once had a girl saying I'm fine with this. I have however heard from a large number of girls (and boys) who are self-excluding from mixed-sex toilets in other schools, who just don't drink throughout the day and wait till they're back home. Would you know about these children if they never tell you?

Also, 60% of our girls have either experienced sexual harassment at school themselves or have witnessed it, even more girls have experienced sexual harassment outside of school. Every single school day a child is raped in UK schools and we know from rape statistics that at least 90% of them will be female children.

The vast majority of these girls feel distress at being forced to share with males in places where they are in a state of undress and therefore feel particularly vulnerable.

Are you seriously expecting such a girl to single herself out from her peers and to disclose her assault to a teacher just so she can have her legally mandated single-sex toilet back?

Child victims of sexual abuse have a right under Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to have the state - and by extension you as their teacher - help them recover from abuse. A huge part of that is providing single-sex sanitary and changing facilities for all children, that respect their sex-based needs and their rights - as provided for in the Equality Act 2010 - to these single-sex spaces.

Another important step in aiding the recovery of sexual abuse victims (the vast majority of whom are female) is respecting the boundaries around their own bodies (that we spend so much time teaching our children they are entitled to have and to assert). And to not just listen to their views when they pluck up the courage to speak up, but to actively seek out their views before embracing these harmful practices that breach the human rights of children.

Your "no problem" mixed-sex toilets are in violation of national laws (Equality Act 2010), of the school building regulations and international laws (the human rights of children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child). I'd say that's a huge fucking problem. But maybe that's just me.

Whatisthisfuckery · 13/02/2019 21:11

Just asked DS 11 y6 what he thinks of the idea of mixed sex toilets at school. Direct quote

‘I’d find it worrying. It’d be weird because I wouldn’t want girls in the toilet when I’m doing my business.’

AlexaShutUp · 13/02/2019 20:50

My dd is 13. She has mixed toilets at her secondary school. She strongly dislikes them for a variety of reasons. She said that she and her friends sometimes find it embarrassing when they have their periods and need to borrow sanitary protection off each other and/or get a bit of blood on their hands which they need to wash off.

DD also says that her Muslim friends struggle because there is nowhere in the main school building where there is a mirror for them to adjust their hijabs when they need to - the only place they can go is the girls' changing room in the sports hall, which is quite a trek and impossible to reach during the short morning break.

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 20:42

KHTeach Are you in the UK? If so, are you aware that children over 8 years of age, should, by law, have single sex toilets?

Smartieshavetheanswer · 13/02/2019 19:44

Comp teacher here and tutor to 15-16 year olds (32 in my reg class).

Unanimous decision "No"

I even heard a "Fuck that" and "no fucking way" in the back row so they had the glare (soon apologised) but they said they felt so strongly about it that the swear slipped out.

KHTeach · 13/02/2019 18:52

As I said on the other thread. I teach at a primary school with mixed sex toilets. Whilst I'm not sure how the kids feel about using them I can say there has been no problems. They are not allowed to go in lesson times only break and lunch. Bullying rates have decreased too.

pinkmirror · 13/02/2019 09:10

Me and dh have separate loos at home . We are both happy that way. That’s because me and him use the toilet with separate issues that we respect of each other. His because he genuinely believes he gets all his wee in the toilet every time (he doesn’t) and me because I have 1000x sanitary products around required for my ridiculously heavy periods. I know I can run to the loo without piss and whatever anywhere at any time. And my loo definitely smells nicer than his and they get cleaned equally by our cleaner. I’d be super annoyed if I had to share a loo with the opposite sex outside my home.

I also worked in a tiny office (ten of us in whole building) with two loos and then men openly joked about how smelly their loo was after they’d use it. I can’t see much has changed and that was ten years ago.

Horsewithnoma · 13/02/2019 08:44

. She’ll be going to a single sex secondary so it’s not something she’s thankfully going to encounter.

But will boys be allowed to go to the school if they self-ID?

Horsewithnoma · 13/02/2019 08:42

Do the teachers and other staff at these schools use mixed-sex toilets too? Or is it just the kids being experimented on in this way.

What's good for the goose?

ForgivenessIsDivine · 13/02/2019 08:02

That is from 2012, England and Wales and defines separate facilities for boys and girls over 8 except where the facilities are provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and is only intended for one pupil at a time.

ForgivenessIsDivine · 13/02/2019 08:00

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1943/made

andyoldlabour · 13/02/2019 07:46

This is yet another example of an agenda being pushed, one which is clearly in contravention of regulations which say that single sex facilities must be provided. This also applies to workplaces.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/410294/Advice_on_standards_for_school_premises.pdf

BluthsFrozenBananas · 13/02/2019 07:45

I just asked my 11 year old y6 DD, she pulled this face Sad and shook her head. She’ll be going to a single sex secondary so it’s not something she’s thankfully going to encounter.

Onlyinanemergency · 13/02/2019 07:35

Several secondary schools in my local area changed to mixed sex toilets over the summer. All have now reverted back to single sex after complaints from pupils and parents. Girls were avoiding going to the toilet all day and some were staying off when they had their period.

snitzelvoncrumb · 12/02/2019 23:59

Oh yuck, no. I have to use the toilet at home after my son and husband and that's bad enough. I don't want to subject my daughter to that at school.

OldCrone · 12/02/2019 23:51

Thanks, Oldstyle. I knew that the more recent legislation only applied to England, but I hadn't found the older legislation which still applies in Wales.

Oldstyle · 12/02/2019 23:00

Here's the reference OldCrone - from the piece on mixed-sex toilets on the WPUK site.

'School toilets in Wales are covered by different legislation. The Education (School Premises) 1999 regulations still apply, and they clearly state:
“Except as provided in regulation 4(3), washrooms for male and female pupils who have attained the age of 8 years shall be separate.”
Regulation 4 (3) refers to the provision of facilities for disabled staff and pupils.
There is no ambiguity in the Welsh regulations: schools must provide separate male and female toilets for pupils over the age of 8.'

OP posts:
Oldstyle · 12/02/2019 22:13

I'll try to find the legal ref for you OldCrone. I'm always quoting references from social media that turn out to not actually exist so it would be useful to check this one out!

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 12/02/2019 22:07

Neither of mine would want to use mixed sex toilets.

DD would simply refuse to use them

DS would use them but feel embarassed

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