Mixed-sex toilets in schools - children's actual views?

@AnotherLongNight Gosh that's awful. Poor girl. I had read in one of the newspapers the other week that there has been a huge rise in child-on-child sexual assaults, including in school.
That's another worry.
I can't find the article now, but this is an article from 2017 www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/09/child-on-child-sexual-assaults-soar-police-figures-reveal

I watched the gender neutral tv show mentioned earlier. It was great apart from this bit, the kids weren't happy, and they were not going to the toilet when they needed to because of this. These were primary school children. Both sexes did not like it.

My DD (8) disclosed in the autumn term that one of the boys in her class had been following her to the toilets, pushing his way in and molesting her. She would be terrified if I told her that the toilets in her new school were going to change to mixed sex.

ChickenonaMug I am so sorry to hear what you went through and thank you for your explanations about how you would have reacted if asked about mixed-sex toilets. You are much braver than me.

It's precisely because child sex abuse victims often cannot assert their boundaries or don't even know that they are allowed boundaries about their own bodies at all, that we have Article 39.

And privacy is also considered a human right, one of the most basic in fact, which is why international human rights law specifies that we must have single-sex provisions in circumstances where we are vulnerable and why the Equality Act recognises the specific sex-based needs of females.

None of the "I'm alright Jack" brigade seem capable of considering that others may feel vulnerable where they don't. By all means, let them seek out mixed-sex facilities if that's how they roll, but what entitles them to deny others, including children, their human rights?

Thanks feministfairy, it is wonderful when children are heard.

Thank you boatyardblues. I find it so frustrating that the voices of sexually abused girls, or the women survivors who must speak on their behalf, are not heard or are dismissed. Watching the diminishing chances of abused girls psychological recovery and integration and inclusion in society is heartbreaking to me. I may not have had the help that I needed but at least in some part I had the spaces that I needed.

Thank you Chicken for sharing your experiences. It's a powerful reminder to the powerful woke and insensitive about the real harm that is being done by this misogynistic and callous removal of sex segregated spaces.

Just to cheer us up - this is what can happen when children's voices are allowed to be heard:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/genderneutral-toilets-my-daughter-was-called-selfish-for-wanting-girlsonly-loos-at-school-cwth60b2c?shareToken=6aebee7d1f5c3dfa1efa30cf88c9339b

This Head had to apologise:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4987780/Headmaster-apologises-gender-neutral-toilets.html

Chicken Your account of your experiences and your fear of disclosure is really powerful.

Can I also say that your posts were brilliant CharlieParley.

Next bit might be a bit triggering to some.

I was groomed and sexually abused (including rape) as a girl between the ages of 7 and 13.5 by an adult male relative. If I had been asked at age 10 if I had a problem with mixed-sex toilets I would probably have said no (provided they didn't smell and were clean) however at that age I had such a poor idea of what was an acceptable way for others to treat my body that, on several occasions, I accepted two boys removing all my clothes and 'exploring' my body. I had no real concept of boundaries.

If I had been asked at the same question at the age of 13. I would also have answered that I had no problem with mixed-sex toilets because I was so scared that my secret would be discovered and what the consequences could be. An anonymous survey would have made no difference. I wouldn't have risked it. Actually it was learning at this age what boundaries were that enabled me to massively reduce my contact with my abuser and stop most of my abuse. It would have been harmful to me (and my attempts to escape my abuse) to learn that my boundaries should be overridden in order to be kind and inclusive.

If I had been asked at age 15 or 16 (after the death of my abuser) if I minded mixed-sex toilets I would have answered no. I would have been scared that someone would have questioned why and figured out my 'shameful' secret. However it was at about this age that the nightmares and flashbacks started and I started to find it increasingly difficult to be around almost all males particularly if I felt vulnerable in anyway.

By the age of 18, I had been raped once more and sexually harassed many times, I expect I would have excluded myself from anywhere with mixed-sex facilities. However if I had not excluded myself then I would have certainly suffered from more anxiety, flashbacks and nightmares.

I agree with CharlieParley that under Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child that sexually abused girls have the right to all appropriate measures to promote their physical and psychological recovery and social reintegration and that such recovery and reintegration shall take place in an environment which fosters the health, self-respect and dignity of the child. Schools and teachers should be taking this seriously, alongside the need to safeguard an abused girl's mental health and her wellbeing and development. Due to the well documented number of girls who do not reveal their abuse to any responsible adult during their childhood then it is appropriate that impact assessments should take this into account and protect all girls on the basis that sexual abuse is known to be so common and is perpetrated disproportionately against girls.

TBH with consultation and surveying i think it’s essential to gather views and to engage people in discussion but on the other hand in the highly unlikely event that 100% of the kids and teachers all said to hell with having single sex toileting... there will still be some kids for whom mixed sex toileting is a total nightmare and for their sakes single sex must be retained. Third spaces are the way forward.

My DC have unisex cubicles and sinks to share outside the cubicles. DD1 (9) says they are disgusting. Covered in wee and unflushed. She thinks single sex would be much better. DD2 (6) tells me how she always has to wipe the seats before sitting down.

I'd bet a lot of money that no schools have consulted children (let alone parents) before imposing mixed sex toilets on pupils.

Just thinking about this some more, there are unisex toilets at are local climbing centre. While on the whole I don’t have an issue, I must say it makes me want to vomit to have to put the toilet seat down and flush the loo then wash my hands BEFORE I use it! Wether it’s men or kids I’ve no idea. There is often pee on the seats and loo roll on the floor too - but it is frequented by children. They are individual toilets and there isn’t the space for a parent to go in with them. It’s not a pleasant experience.

I have two male children and a male partner, and my dream for my own house is to have a bathroom of my own - and DP is fine, and the kids aren't bad (and are mine to train, so I have a certain amount of control over seat-wee-ers)

Boys toilets stink. Boys can use urinals, which means that they can fit more wee-units into one space, so there will be fewer toilets over all if all are unisex (so presumably urinals are removed - I might stride past weeing men if I wanted to, but I don't think kids should have to).

It's a bad idea on all levels, and my boys would hate it too.

When I was a teenager I found the thought of other girls hearing my tampon wrapper rustling absolutely mortifying. I would have hated mixed sex bathrooms.

However I would also have been far too embarrassed to ever verbalise that to the school.

I can confirm from my time as a school cleaner that both girls and boys toilets are MINGING!
I don't think mixed toilets is a good idea though. Especially in secondary when girls are dealing with periods etc.

Brilliant posts, CharlieParley!

frames girls' distress at losing their human right to privacy, dignity and safety and their absolute right to asserting their boundaries around their own bodies against all male children, however they identify, as problematic, disrespectful or unjustified, it takes a brave girl indeed to raise her voice and say I don't want to share my toilets with boys.

Plus the mantra that if girls aren't kind and inclusive they must be 'educated' - or shifted elsewhere.

I would think very young kids wouldn't mind, but approaching/going through puberty would be horrendous for girls. They may not speak up as being branded a bigot would also be awful but I can't see them being happy (or safe really...lads at our school were constantly trying to get in the girls loos and apparently hundreds of kids are sexually assaulted/raped at school too)

I asked 14 year old DSD and she said she absolutely would not be happy. She also said she would speak up, but shes one of the 'popular kids' so speaking up would probably not earn her the bullying that other kids might get. She says none of her mates would want it either, which is what I expect tbh. Some lads won't be happy either, but others would be over the moon.

"I asked my year 5s this morning how they felt using mixed sex toilets. The vast majority said they were ok with it."

When I was 5 I didn't give a stuff about anything, and my parents bathed my sister and I together.
However that stopped when I was about 7, and I certainly wouldn't have been happy with mixed toilets/changing rooms at that age.

I asked dd13 last night and she said "NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE". Although she did clarify that her school has single-sex toilet rooms with four or so stalls, sinks in a row outside the cubicles (which surprised me as the building is only ten years old). She is not at all willing to share this layout.

The other academy in our town, owned by the same chain, is much older building but has been retrofitted with floor-to-ceiling cubicles that include a sink; these are for everyone and open out onto a corridor in plain view of staff. Apparently these were put in place as an anti-bullying measure. She said she would probably be alright with that, as we've used them before when we've had sports classes there. I can't help but wonder what they're like when a thousand kids have used them, though. I also wonder at the thinking behind the different designs - although both schools belong to the same chain, they're very different in character (one known as "a bit rough and not very academic" and one being the more "tightly run high-flying academy" stereotype). It feels like the difference is more about class than wokeness in this case.

*of either sex...

DS is 17 and couldn't give a flying fart apparently. With him it's more an age thing and can't be bothered with the younger children or either sex. He'd be happy with toilets split by juniors and seniors.

Just asked my two (13 year old girl and 15 yr old boy) and my dd said "no,that would be gross-the boys throw toilet paper all over the bathrooms and pee everywhere" and my son said "that wouldn't be fair to the girls and boys are gross! He also mentioned peeing-but said that not only do they owe on the toilet seats or on the floor but he has also seen bits peeing in the sinks....AND the soap eeeeeeewwwws

I think a lot depends on the design- as an adult I've been happy to use some mixed facilities and not others.

I'm appalled by some school toilets, really short doors a tall child can easily see over so there is no privacy, no mirrors - I'm sure there are justifications for this but I think it's terrible not to be able to see whether you have pen on your face or if a spot is developing that you might want to stick some concealer on!