Any Trans Inclusive feminists here?

R0wantrees
Thanks again

R0wantrees was that on the linked thread? It was a while ago I read it, I shall revisit, thanks.

It is there, also here:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1049289194370002945.html

Sheila Jeffries at the first 'We Need To Talk Meeting' which took place after Maria Machlaclan was assaulted at Speaker's Corner.

Sheila Jeffries describes transgenderism as part of the wider men's sexual rights movement and describes attempts by males to join women's spaces back in 1970's:
'What Is Gender?'

R0wantrees was that on the linked thread? It was a while ago I read it, I shall revisit, thanks.

The whole world does not have to centre men in everything. I know how difficult men find this to conceptualise, but tough

I have been absolutely blindsided by the way groups of men just CANNOT accept that they might not always be the main focus of interest. It's been revelatory.

FlyingOink Its worth reading Vulvamort's collation from Hansard re the GRA debates.
Many of the current issues were raised (& dismissed)

Women's liberation is by it's nature exclusive of men, however those men identify. It is also inclusive of all women, however they identify or whether they have intersex conditions or not.

The whole world does not have to centre men in everything. I know how difficult men find this to conceptualise, but tough. Live with it. Women have had to live with being excluded from pretty much everything for centuries. No more.

nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated
I read that thread, it's very informative. I was just noting that LGB organisations had trans people covered because there was an overlap. Although I think the influx of AGP men has changed the trans movement, I'm not naïve enough to believe they ever had women's interests at heart.

And when I say there's no real need for the GRA now, I mean in terms of it's original scope. To allow transitioning people to marry as heterosexuals.
There are no positive or negative rights that any other group has that trans people do not have. They are arguing for extras.

Significant thread re the history of transrights in UK:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

AngryAttackKittenswrote , "I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."

Nice one old crone. I havent got round to listening to that yet.

It was, in the Govt's eyes, FAR preferable to convert a same sex couple into a heterosexual couple via 'sex change' than it was to make same sex marriage legal
That's a good point, I wonder why the GRA wasn't dismantled after marriage laws were changed? There's no real need for it.

is trolling part of your hypocrisy too? Are you to follow me everywhere to every post I make with your critique?

Ok, I copying this here and then reporting your post for calling me a troll.

My point about assholes being assholes, was in reference to people insisting that their are only two sexes; while using the term intersex.... and; no matter the evidence, understanding or illustration of harms caused by binary thinking, you just stick to your rhetoric that intersex people are simply disordered and are not valid or entitled to having their sex classified as third, (or to respect any wider discourse of multiple sex etc)
I’m allowed to call that out dear.

You are dear, but, "calling it out" in this case is actually embarrassing yourself with your display of nonsense about disorders of sex development. Use the word variation if you can't cope with the word disorder.

LGB groups some years back agreed to widen their scope to campaign for trans rights as well as gay rights
Well I think at one point they were one and the same, as most trans people were same sex attracted before transition. So I, as a butch lesbian, have more in common with a gay male drag queen than a married IT consultant from Guildford who likes sissy porn.
It's the entryism of the latter that appears to have changed things irrevocably. And I say that in full knowledge of the misogyny prevalent amongst gay men.
I might be wrong but that injection of cash at the same time also seemed to change priorities considerably. Ruth Hunt has a career to think of, she can't be bothered with homosexuals any more! We're old hat now.

There's been a huge social shift in recent decades to accept single-sex attraction as a normal part of human sexuality, leading to legalisation of gay sex, equalisation of the age of consent, civil partnership, same-sex marriage. The majority of UK people go along with this and many would be horrified to be described as homophobic.

A key driver for political endorcement of the GRA was to avoid same-sex marriage.

The role that homophobia has played in transideology and transrights is significant.
See work done by Vulvamort @ HairyLeggdHarpy linked below:

OP Destinysdaughter wrote:
"Illuminating Twitter thread about the origins of the Gender Recognition Act
This is a very long thread from Twitter about the origins of the GRA 2004, including quotes from Hansard, showing the debates at the time. Illuminating and shocking!

“Tweets from 2003: The Gender Recognition Bill

I'm going to tweet out a few of the illuminating comments from the debates that led to the GRA 2004, to save you all ploughing through Hansard.
One of the primary motivations (if not the foremost) for the bill was to avoid legalising same sex marriage. This featured VERY heavily in the discussions.
#GRA2004

It was, in the Govt's eyes, FAR preferable to convert a same sex couple into a heterosexual couple via 'sex change' than it was to make same sex marriage legal”

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1049289194370002945.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3388967-Illuminating-Twitter-thread-about-the-origins-of-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

Transwomen are women falls down when you start talking about lesbians doesn't it.

It's so blindingly obvious that lesbians don't want cock.

Works with heteros too. If my dh became a transwoman that does not make me a lesbian.

It's like transwomen think everyone else is made of putty and exist just to mould themselves around their ideology.

Transwomen are transwomen. Why are they so ashamed of that?

Thanks! One thing I forgot:

There's been a huge social shift in recent decades to accept single-sex attraction as a normal part of human sexuality, leading to legalisation of gay sex, equalisation of the age of consent, civil partnership, same-sex marriage. The majority of UK people go along with this and many would be horrified to be described as homophobic.

Somehow, I don't really understand how or why since to me they seem quite distinct struggles, LGB groups some years back agreed to widen their scope to campaign for trans rights as well as gay rights. Possibly because a lot of the gay rights battles have been won, trans rights have come to dominate these groups' agendas, but because they are still called LGBT groups, many people assume that it's all of a piece and if they object to a trans rights campaign they will be homophobic.

This is backfiring a bit now as many LGB campaigners are pointing out that there are clashes of rights which need to be debated and resolved, e.g. lesbians should not be hassled to have sex with male-bodied transwomen who are attracted to women, because a lesbian by definition is only attracted to women, and that usually means biological women. Some transactivists argue that this is transexclusionary because what makes someone a woman is all in the head, nothing to do with the genitals.

But here again the general public doesn't grasp this and just either worries about being anti-gay or mutters privately about the loony left.

A year ago, a Panelbase survey found 25% of the public in support of self-ID. Six or so months ago, a YouGov survey found 18%. A couple of months ago the most recent professional survey (forget which poller!) had it down to 15%.

The more aware the public becomes, the more averse the public becomes.

Non binary
*
= I am very special and defy all gender norms. Because I’m special. But the rest of you need to adhere to strict gender stereotypes because otherwise I don’t look special. I am very special, did I mention that?*

That's gone straight onto my list of brilliant quotes about this current nonsense we're all living through.

I had someone in mind as I was reading it and it made such sense..

Bittermints
That's an excellent summary

When the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004 Parliament was assured that there would be around 5000 individuals eligible to apply for one, breaking down roughly to two thirds biological males to one third biological females. I believe that in fact around 5000 GRCs have indeed been issued up to last year. The general public would scarcely notice that number of transwomen and transmen and would assume, with reason, that most of them have had hormone treatment and probably surgery too.

But now Stonewall and others are telling us that:

(a) a diagnosis of gender dysphoria shouldn't be required to get a GRC
(b) paying £70 for a GRC is out of the reach of most trans people so is unfair
(c) living in the intended gender, whatever that's supposed to mean, for two years is too onerous and that requirement should be scrapped
(d) almost anybody can call themselves trans or non-binary, no objective criteria required (although gender critical people who point out that in earlier life they were GNC and later came to terms with their natal sex are mysteriously not true trans/non-binary and nor are any of the people who detransition and nor are the men who cross-dress and then commit sex offences)
(e) toddlers and very young children must be believed when they say they've been born in the wrong body, and set on a path to medicalisation, even though that medicalisation is mysteriously not required for adults transitioning
(f) they estimate there are hundreds of thousands of trans and NB people in the UK
(g) none of the above affects anybody else so none of the rest of us need be consulted about any of it and no research is needed.

Sorry, no. It needs to be discussed openly and the general public needs to know the facts. The great majority of adults now calling themselves trans are not having sexual reassignment surgery and may not even be taking hormones. Even when they do this does not add up to a change of sex, it's all cosmetic. This is not what most people currently believe. Once they do know it changes their opinion very rapidly.

Now all we need is for men to follow suit and all trans people will be properly included in the includyness that they so badly need.
I am beginning to think this was deliberately hijacked though. Young men are more inclusive of gay men now. There is still homophobia, don't get me wrong, but the majority of men, especially young men, no longer thing a gay man isn't an actual man.
So it would have been possible to build on this and for all feminine identified men to be accepted as men.
Since the intake of people who were previously referred to as straight transvestites, this ideal seems further away than ever. Which would suit that group as they would prefer to be included in the group that forms their main sexual interest.

I'm just forming my thoughts on this, but that is what it looks like to me.

in real life about this has been horrified when they discover the majority of transwomen don't have surgery, yet a huge number of TW still want access to female space.

Which is why I think it was great that Nic Williams managed to get the phrase 'penis and testicles' into her interview about transwomen in women's prisons on R4 yesterday.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3504986-Today-programme

Paul? Paul Bullen? Is that you?

Hot on the heels of your vulva/vagina success are you back with more brilliant manalysis of science words to educate us?

No i think they've only just realised Transmen exist and have realised we are on the whole not excluding Tran identifing people.

The OP said one of the other threads that they were 'born with a vagina', but identifies as non-binary.

I'm not sure what has gone wrong, but those of us who are a bit older than the OP grew up in a world where we were encouraged to believe that being female didn't limit our choices in life. We seem to have gone backwards, so that girls who don't want to perform femininity have to identify as non-binary or as transmen.

Younger people like Jax don't seem to realise that what they need is feminism, not a non-binary or 'male' identity.