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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FGM and breast ironing. A different perspective.

118 replies

ixqik · 11/02/2019 12:52

When we have different standards for different groups. What is the word for it?
fullcreamweb.blog/2019/02/10/binders-full-of-children/?fbclid=IwAR33nmHgxF5jLJk203lNKG5ljhXeEEzoLHfFsjvoUkZVZFaSQBLyfHRYU64

OP posts:
Fazackerley · 12/02/2019 11:24

What's happened to Jazz Jennings is abusive and revolting. For that reason alone the article in the OP is valid.

HumberElla · 12/02/2019 11:22

I would also like to hear what the definition of non binary is in this conversation. And does this apply to us all on here?
I do not identify with the gender stereotypes that have been forced upon me since birth. Because of my sex. I don’t identify with gender at all. Most of the forms I fill in for official documents and those for work do not apply to me because they ask for my gender.
I don’t believe humans can change sex.
I have spent much of my younger years being intensely uncomfortable in my own developing body. I was bullied because I didn’t conform to expectations related to my sex.
Where do People Like Me fit in?

OldCrone · 12/02/2019 11:09

I read all the way to the end, hoping to learn how JaxintheBlue 's non binary is different to my non binary

Just come back to this thread hoping for an answer to this. Could you come back and answer this question @JaxintheBlue ? There are quite a few of us who'd like to see your answer.

CallMeWoman · 12/02/2019 10:53

I hope so, BigGoat. We live in one of those areas.

BigGoat · 12/02/2019 10:51

CallMeWoman ,

I hear you, but, I also expect that as the working-classes have been at the bottom of the pile for (in this country at least) generations, they tend to take most middle-class ideology with a good pinch of salt.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/02/2019 10:47

I read all the way to the end, hoping to learn how JaxintheBlue 's non binary is different to my non binary

I'm sitting in an IT department wearing jeans and a black jumper, planning a server upgrade.

It would be good to get terms defined JaxintheBlue....?

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:46

CallMeWoman
Stonewall disgust me. They really do. They're so gung-ho, like a 100mph bull in a china shop. Even the slogan is ill-considered.

BigGoat · 12/02/2019 10:44

A child can't consent to any body modification, agreed, and I would add:

the child's parent or guardian who has allowed/signed off on permanent body modification should be held responsible for failing to protect the child's rights to reach adulthood free of permanent physical injury.

CallMeWoman · 12/02/2019 10:44

Not the working-class and not the ethnic and minority groups who are most likely to be at the bottom of the earnings distribution.

Oh don't worry, Stonewall is fixing that little problem by offering a free suite of trainings to schools with 14% or more pupil premium in specifically targeted areas of the country. They'll soon teach children of all backgrounds to hate their bodies.

Rocky, the shared phraseology is quite obvious, if you know what you're looking at.

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:43

These 'trans kids' often seem very 'worldly' and 'wise for their years' don't they? It's... Interesting
I think that might be partially down to peer group rejection (both ways!) as much as shady adult "allies".

Debaser12 · 12/02/2019 10:39

Children don't have the mental capacity to understand the long term consequences of their actions, no matter how articulate and intelligent they may be.

That is why there are laws in place based on age such as age of criminal responsibility, drinking age, tattoo age, elective surgery age.

A child can't consent to any body modification.

RockyFlintstone · 12/02/2019 10:31

These 'trans kids' often seem very 'worldly' and 'wise for their years' don't they? It's... Interesting.

BigGoat · 12/02/2019 10:30

Totally agree Flying, its simple divide and rule tactics, but if we are to win the arguments (which increasingly we are) we have to consider it in detail rather than just dismiss it (which is what TRAs do).

Its interesting also that they choose to ignore the existence of GC BAME feminists and feminist groups.

RockyFlintstone · 12/02/2019 10:27

Do you know what consent is?

Do you?

Jax you sound like you know nothing about 'informed consent'.

I looked up Landon Richie, mentioned in that article. It appears that Landon is now 16 and had a double mastectomy in 2016, so would have been 13 or 14 years old.

Jax do you believe that 12/13/14 year olds can consent to sex? And if not, then why is it different for irreverible life changing drugs and surgeries?

Oh and I fucking hate the way it's called 'top surgery' as well. Talk about minimising.

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:23

TRAs have often claimed that GC resistance to TRA ideology is white middle-class feminist gatekeeping.
Plus they would say that, wouldn't they, considering they completely ignore BAME women altogether.

BigGoat · 12/02/2019 10:21

TRAs have often claimed that GC resistance to TRA ideology is white middle-class feminist gatekeeping. I've never found these suggestions convincing as they mostly came from the mouths of white men.

The OPs linked article further underscores why they would try to uphold this claim:

TRAs and their child victims (children who are not gender dysphoric but who have been convinced that they are) are disproportionately from wealthy white socio-economic groups.

Who else has unlimited access to WIFI and IPads to read up on how to trans online?

Who else could afford the meds and the surgery?

Who else would even have the head space to engage with the mind bending word salad of Queer ideology and its claims that biological sex does not exist.

Not the working-class and not the ethnic and minority groups who are most likely to be at the bottom of the earnings distribution.

The UK now rightly jails parents for FGM and has a campaign against breast ironing. Perhaps new legislation is required to broaden definitions to ensure all adults are held responsible and culpable for permanent mutilations to a child's body, whatever the cultural or ideological source of their rationale to inflict permanent damage.

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:18

privileged exploration
No a privileged exploration would be having the space to discuss these things, to learn about who she is, what makes her comfortable or uncomfortable, unpacking why that is and what influences it, etc.
Having irreversible medical or surgical intervention is not exploration, there isn't a route back to camp afterwards.

JaxintheBlue · 12/02/2019 10:16

Flying .... I think your tying yourself in knots and just getting further and further away from the point, while missing the glaringly obvious.

We can not compare young people exploring gender in supported clinical environments with FGM or breast ironing.
One is abhorrent my forced;
The other is a privileged exploration.

We can compare the relationship between coerced/ forced augmentation
(But even then... kids can’t get labiaplasty/ gender reassignment or a boob job)
So your comparing an abuse towards adults with an abuse towards children.

I don’t think it is a crime to enable safe spaces for children to investigate their identity. &/ voluntarily seek medical treatments for gender dysmorphia.

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:14

Children are not adults. Even clever children. We don't allow them to make decisions that can affect them long term because they need protection.
A child looks to their parents, peers and wider society for cues on how to act, what is ok and what isn't, etc.
A young Indonesian girl who is raised to believe that if she isn't circumcised she is unclean is going to believe that is necessary. And she will go to a hospital and have a procedure done. It's lower risk than what happens with rusty knives and acacia thorns in other countries. Is it somehow ok now because a: the child is clear and emphatic that she wants it done and b: it's in a clinical setting?
No and no.
It is harmful, and reducing the risk by putting it in a clinical setting still doesn't make it morally right to carry out the procedure. As mentioned before, a child isn't legally allowed to have a tattoo, and they're carried out in sterile environments too.
If a young girl has had the weight of social expectations on her, the weight of "gender" on her, is actively encouraged to transition by minor internet celebrities and an online army of enablers, is she, as a child, able to make a free decision to have a double mastectomy at 13 (in the US, this is happening)?
Again I say no. She is a child, she can't consent, and she really should be educated about all the competing interests trying to influence her thinking and her self-image. Then as an adult, she can make her own decisions about most modification, transitioning, gender presentation, name changes, etc.
What's hateful about that?

CallMeWoman · 12/02/2019 10:11

*caring

CallMeWoman · 12/02/2019 10:10

I am very uncomfortable with the language being used with regards to children seeking gender changes. "Independently" "choice" etc etc.

Children are not independent, and their life choices are restricted by Carl g adults for good reason.

When even GIDs clinicians are calling for a more cautious approach, you know things aren't quite right.

Children can't consent, regardless of which culture they are from or currently live in. I care about all of them and don't think their bodies should be changed in order to fit societal expectations.

terfsandwich · 12/02/2019 10:09

I really really want the next "privileged white kids go troppo" BBC reality TV show to be a bunch of non-binary activists going around the world educating remote villagers etc.

I would just love it. Us GC women would eat humble pie when all the Pakistani school girls say they're not female any more and the men stop harassing them.

JaxintheBlue · 12/02/2019 10:07

Hmmmm.

I really think your blindsighting yourselves to the concept of consent.... to suit your own binary trans hating narrative

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:05

JaxintheBlue
I don't hate trans people. And don't forget we were talking specifically about children. Who can't consent.

FlyingOink · 12/02/2019 10:03

Your argument about coerced labiaplasty / body augmentation is comparable & valid. We can draw links between the sexist society constantly bombarding young women with this coerced message that they must get surgery to be women, attractive or accepted. But this is just not the same as a young person questioning their gender

What about the coerced message that if they are butch and attracted to girls they must be a boy? How is that less coercive than the message that labia should be neat?