Being articulate

OP Please just post. Nothing to be lost.

It's great when you stop worrying about whether someone might think badly of you for what you write. You don't have to write convoluted paragraphs that acknowledge that you could be wrong and outline the opposite point of view too. You can just lay out your opinion and why you think it. You can add evidence and criticise other points of view for having sketchy or non-existent evidence.

AnyFucker makes my night, effortlessly.

Less is more, mainly

I've spent most of my working life writing professionally in one capacity or another. And yet I find posting here very difficult.

I think this is because I have a personal and emotional involvement in one of the subjects often under discussion, and that brings with it a particular vulnerability and fear of being piled on by those who are not interested in discussion.

I am constantly in awe of the amazing posters here who refuse to be silenced or cowed, and who manage to be so articulate in the face of considerable provocation.

I've always found it useful to acknowledge my own limitations. If I'm not familiar with an aspect of something, I don't wade in mob handed, I hang back, I read, I let others who know their business have at it. Bowl is great at the sciencey stuff, R0wan will know who said that thing I can't remember in a thread way back when, and there are any number of fearsomely funny, clever and compassionate women here who have dug into women's rights for years.

It can be a bit dazzling to be here with clever women sometimes, but I stick to what I know. I probably share far too much than is wise, but I will contribute to threads about homophobia, which I have sadly experienced, threads about trans identifying children, when I can be sure I will keep a cool head, and I mostly waffle on about the cultic aspects of Genderism, having been through the experience of being in a fundamentalist religion and come out (almost) the other side.

Don't be daunted. Everyone here is flesh and failings, same as you. Just say what's on your mind, don't take anything too personally, and give it time to grow your confidence.

Expressing your thoughts simply doesn't mean your thoughts are simplistic.

I can veer from (fondly imagined) eloquence to waffle within the same sentence because it gets away from me, runs off at several different tangents and eventually wanders back 30 lines later having lost the entire point I was originally trying to make along with everyone, who lost the will to live, while trying to read it.

GRRM has nothing on me for waffle, ahem evidently, so I’m no model but I’d just say go for it, OP. You’ll find the more you post the more you’ll mirror similar kinds of turns of phrase, vocabulary and sentence constructions to those others in the community use.

In the meantime, simple is good! Don’t be me. Keep it simple and succinct when making a point and you can’t go far wrong.

I keep in mind that my primary concerns are for safeguarding, women's rights and fair process.
I don't have children but I have neices, god daughters and have worked with vulnerable children and adults (both sexes).
Its a useful anchor!

I struggle with this too, OP. I keep reading posts on here, and hearing people in RL, and thinking, 'that's exactly what I thought, why couldn't I have put it into words?".

Avoid apologising for having an opinion, especially a potentially unpopular opinion, especially before you've even stated the opinion. Similarly avoid front loading with caveats. Avoid aiming for everyone to agree with you.

This is such good advice. I'm very conflict-averse and it takes me ages to get to the point because I'm worried about provoking an argument, or being misunderstood. I'm trying my best to avoid the front-loading with caveats but decads of being socialised to be 'nice' die hard!

I have a policy of never arguing with anyone on a thread. Let it go if someone says my opinion is a bag of shite. Lurkers will gain something from both of our points of view anyway.

I feel it is important for ordinary women to speak their minds, many and varied as they are. So what if other women disagree or find me/you/us objectionable. Let's not be an echo chamber or aspire to be a hive mind. Speak up, be heard.

I would also say: don't waste time apologising in advance for your opinions/style/whatever - just give them!

It would be a terrible thing to say nothing at all. Particularly for fear of getting it wrong. Everyone has a head full of thought and only by exchanging these can we learn and grow beyond our own horizons.

That's why no debate is such a non starter!

I find my brilliant point of view that sits in my head looks a tad pointless on the page.

MN and the amazing women who post here encourages me to keep going.

You will get constructive comments here but you also have to watch out for the sharks.

This helps to make me really think about what I am trying to say.

That s true.

But sometimes it is the different styles of writing that really gets the point across.

Prime example being POsie Parker’s ‘woman: adult human female’ .

Great thread OP, and its also great to see so many people in favour of open debate.
I try to keep my own comments short and to the point. And I try not to be so much in awe of the more articulate posters that I never say anything

Hi OP I'm fairly new here too (changed log in info and new username this week after data breach. Still don't know why I changed username ). I too tend to word some posts badly and I'm not very articulate however as a previous poster said if others can see you're posting in good faith most posters see beyond and are not just forgiving but very welcoming and encouraging.

Agree there are some v wise owls on this board in particular (one is already here!) and I won't name them but I'm quite in awe of their knowledge, experience and how compelling but also non-threatening they are with their view. This board has been a great help in giving me courage to not only call out misogyny in real life but challenge and discuss it with others. As mum to a DD I really value having that confidence so I can model it for her.

So I'm doing a great example of waffling now - welcome to an amazing place OP and I look forward to seeing more of you!

‘If you are in favour of self id then you just haven't thought about it hard enough yet.’

...and be aware that the TRAs counter argument is

If you are not for self Id and gender bollox, you need to be educated.

Good thread OP.

The nicest change for me about this whole topic becoming more publicly known about through discussion in the press etc is that I can use other more articulate people's points to express my point of view.

It is true that the more you read on the topic, the easier it becomes to break it down and make sense of it to others. The hardest bit is convincing people who are unaware that this batshittery is actually happening and not tin foil hat territory. Again the efforts of a tiny few have begun to swing the press juggernaut in favour of exposure, awareness and cold harsh analysis and away from the madness of no debate and precious feelz.

This trend will continue and as public awareness grows and discussion spreads wider, articulation of the issues will become ever easier.

I too waffle. I like the idea of leading with a conclusion and will use that as a tactic from now on. I also get very upset and that is not helpful when trying to present rational facts so must find a technique for dealing with that. I do use the phrase "women are allowed to be angry" because we are and as soon as you really think about that and how much of this is about women just not doing as we are told and being nice and budging up in a way men are never expected to it really clarifies the misogyny.

My go to points are the penis bearer statistics and also the statistics for male violence (to refute NAMALT).

In my head I always have a very good point someone made on here. If you are in favour of self id then you just haven't thought about it hard enough yet.

Concern about getting it right and feeling intimidated can impact how we express ourselves to others. These feelings can be inhibiting and/or mean we add extra uneccessary justifications etc.
I suspect many people who are admired for their contributions also sometimes feel similar self-doubt and regret.

My problem is that I rarely seem to be able to express myself properly. I either waffle, sound very simplistic or don't seem to be able to get my point across at all despite being reasonable intelligent. (I think).

Talking here is important, how you actually talk isn't.
Doesn't matter if you are not funny or not educated.

I found listening to the guilty feminist podcast helped me enormously. Also reading MN.

I am a TwitterBot 5000 with enhanced wittinessity in the ad-free premium version.

I’m not very articulate either, not when I’m writing/ speaking on my feet. I get picked up on MN for misinterpretation of poor word choices.

But I waffle on anyway. I have found FWR section of MN much more forgiving than other parts of MN, especially AIBU.