Sunday Times Front Cover. Trans Prison wings

When I clicked on it it said that they weren't accepting comments on it. I didn't realised they'd been enabled then disabled.

Meanwhile the Mail readers seem to think that going to a 'trans wing' would be some sort of privilege for the prisoners - they don't seem to have realised that some of them have been going straight to women's prisons and this would just keep them where they belong.

There was something odd with the comments earlier, many disappeared from the first lot that were posted this morning. And then after an initial flurry not many were appearing. Odd.

Does anyone know why the comments under that Times article have dissappeared?

Yes Wunder I don't completely trust that this won't be a case of only moving them to a trans wing if and when they do something proven to be bad.

I'd like more emphasis on the rights of female prisoners to their privacy and dignity away from any male prisoners.

This is progress but it needs to be ALL transgender prisoners. Not some, not most, absolutely all. So either imprisoned on sex appropriate estate or as trans in separate estate. Otherwise it is still a system wide open to the abuse we have already seen and will see more of. We need to trust the chromosomes (not some random panel of people) to judge and enforce the equality act.

We mustn't be fooled by a political "give the noisy dog a frikkin bone to shut up" approach, we need the full enforcement of single sex spaces back in place. Nothing less is good enough.

Will female staff be expected to pat down trans women?
I should imagine so, police and security officers are expected to

The fools had a group therapy scheme, which the offenders spent giving each other ideas.
That's awful

it may make more sense to accommodate low risk trans prisoners with other vulnerable prisoners who are not trans rather than assuming trans wings will sort everything.

Yes, this would be a solution. Identify the needs of the trans prisoners and the way in which they may be vulnerable within the general prison population, and try to make sure they are safe. It's absurd to pander to the notion that they have actually changed sex.

This idea that people who say they 'identify as' the opposite sex, have somehow changed something fundamental about themselves needs to be questioned. Prisoners just declaring that they have some identity or characteristic which requires special treatment is ridiculous. Even more so when it's clear that having that particular characteristic brings obvious benefits - whether it's better food or access to women.

Someone posted this:

www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/scottish-prison-sees-number-of-jewish-inmates-soar-as-they-claim-kosher-meals-1.63580

in the comments under the Times article. It looks so apt I'm struggling to believe it isn't a hoax.

They just need to be extended to cover prisoners who 'identify as' a different sex or non-binary.

I don't disagree in the slightest! I'm just saying that with a very small prisoner population, it may make more sense to accommodate low risk trans prisoners with other vulnerable prisoners who are not trans rather than assuming trans wings will sort everything.

This looks like fantastic news

I don't think any variance from strict sex segregation should be happening, but that doesn't mean that I don't see it's not simple for the prison authorities to work out what to do with trans inmates.

It's not simple, but they are just another group of potentially vulnerable prisoners. I assume that the prison service has guidelines for ensuring the safety of various other groups of vulnerable prisoners, within the prisons designed for each sex. They just need to be extended to cover prisoners who 'identify as' a different sex or non-binary.

The problem has arisen because of the legal fiction that was created with the GRA (and possibly before) that someone who wanted to 'live as' the opposite sex could actually be legally recognised as such. Biological reality has to be the overriding factor here, not the fictions that were put in place to help the experience of people whose lives were being made difficult because of their non-compliance with gendered expectations.

Now being reported in the DM
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687873/UK-jails-transgender-wings-two-female-inmates-sexually-assaulted-trans-inmate.html

The usual suspects (and the powerful ones hidden behind the scenes) will be lobbying like mad to make sure this doesn't proceed. We have to do everything we can to make sure that it does, and without delay.

The comments under the Times article are being rather enthusiastically pruned. More than half that were on their an hour ago have now gone. I don't recall them being particularly out there, more like "well, what did they expect?"

Funky - yes. And a projected population of 1,000 will clearly be easier to manage than one of 125. But anyone interested in the disastrous state of our prisons and prisoner welfare generally, regardless of trans issues, will not want to see low risk prisoners housed with high risk prisoners, or prisoners accommodated so far from home that visits are impossible. Continued contact with family is essential for prisoner welfare while serving and also cuts the likelihood of recidivism on release.

I'm just saying that prisons are complicated. I don't think any variance from strict sex segregation should be happening, but that doesn't mean that I don't see it's not simple for the prison authorities to work out what to do with trans inmates.

Lang they seem to manage security risks with female prisons though don’t they? They could do that with trans wings too. Like female prisoners, those too dangerous could be housed in the male estate.

Don't think the category is a problem - they're all cat A aren't they...

Wouldn't they have a trans wing in a couple of prisons and divide them up according to that? So you've got a category a prison with its trans wing then elsewhere a category c prison with that trans wing.

It's an amazing breakthrough anyway and it shows how important sex segregation is and given how little they care about female prisoners it's massive. Big thanks to Karen White...

To be a devil's advocate: it's not as simple as saying "trans wings, sorted". Prisoners are housed according to risk. You can't have trans wings in which Cat C non violent, non sexual offenders are banged up with Cat A violent or sexually predatory offenders. It's a small population and resources are highly limited.

(Not saying prisons shouldn't be sex segregated, full stop. They should.)

They could have self ID officers too so female officers aren't at risk

Perfect!!!

Wonder if, should there be a significant reduction in prisoners presenting as trans, would there then be a government enquiry into whether it really is all about validation.

Whether if the only validation they receive is from.other trans people will it give them the same sense of accomplishment.

Will female staff be expected to pat down trans women?

I'm sure one of the male staff could self identify as a woman (Pips Bunce style) when some self identified piss taker needs to be searched.

But if TWAW then it is 100% women's space. Only GC people think otherwise.

They could have self ID officers too so female officers aren't at risk.

It that defeats the point doesn’t it? I thought the whole goal was to gain access 100% to women’s spaces.

Oh dear, I fear feelings will be mortally wounded.

Well done to everyone who’s been speaking up about this